Being Mr. No at my first committee meeting

[clemlaw]

Well, I just went to my first ever Pack Committee meeting as a brand new Tiger Den leader. It seems to be a well functioning committee, everyone seems to get along well, etc.

 

One thing came up, and I could use some advice on whether I handled this right, and whether I was right in the first place. We were talking about possible future events, and one of them involved renting a swimming pool.

 

When this came up, I mentioned that BSA had some very specific rules about aquatic activities. Apparently, nobody had ever heard about this before, and one den leader even said that it was OK as long as the parents were there.

 

I played a little bit dumb, but I said I didn't think there was an exception just because parents were present, but there were specific rules about ability groups, annual checks, buddy system, etc., etc., and that BSA was a stickler for making sure that these rules were followed. I mentioned that they were probably in the Guide to Safe Scouting, but it sounds like maybe I'm the only person who owns a copy.

 

It was just at the early planning stage at this point, so I didn't want to sound too much like Mr. By The Book. (I'm usually not Mr. By The Book, but when it comes to water safety, those rules were beat into my head as a Scout, and that's probably one area where I am a stickler by following every rule every time.)

 

Today, I e-mailed the person who brought up the idea, and sent him a link to the G2SS Safe Swim Defense page. I told him I'm a strong supporter of aquatic programs--one of the best things I got out of scouting was learning how to swim myself, which probably never would have happened if I wasn't a scout. But I also said that if it's a pack activity, we need to follow these rules so that we're covered by BSA insurance. I have learned that it's often a good strategy to blame things on those silly bean counters who worry about silly things like insurance.

 

First of all, am I right? AFAIK, any time a scout activity involves members (youth or adult) in the water above their ankles, then the whole Safe Swim Defense rules apply, right? There's no exception just because parents are present, right?

 

And could I have handled it better? If the rest of the committee decided to have the kids wear the wrong uniform, I probably would have kept my mouth shut, because I'm the new guy (OK, OK, maybe I would have spoken up then, too. But this is too important to keep my mouth shut. I think I planted the seed so that when they do an activity like this (which they should) that it's done right. But I'm open to suggestions on how to do it better next time!

[VigilEagle04]

It's good to bring up safety concerns, and as far as I know, you are correct on all points but one. You'd still be covered by BSA insurance whether or not the guidelines are followed. I may be wrong on that, but I think you'd be covered regardless.

[shortridge]

Nope, you're absolutely right.

 

Have your CC and CM been trained yet? SSD training is online, so they can get up to speed quickly about what they need to do.

[AlFansome]

From page 5 of the Cub Scout Outdoor Program Guidelines at http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/510-631.pdf should provide all the info that you need.

 

Short answer: One adult must be Safe Swim Defense trained and agree to enforce the plan even at a pool. If a lifeguard is provided by the facility (or hired for the event), then lookouts and Scout lifeguards are not strictly required.

 

Hopefully, you won't need to be the "rules" guy on everything this pack does (i.e. BALOO required for pack camping, Tour Permits, etc..etc..). It may be the case, though, that the Pack leadership is lax on dotting i's and crossing t's, in which case you'll need to decide which things your going to go to the mat over and how quickly you want to push things. As a Tiger Den leader, you've got years of Cub Scouting ahead of you. Don't burn bridges too quickly...slow and steady and you'll be able to turn around the pack attitudes over time, particularly for things that are a potentially large safety issue.

 

Finally, just as fyi...you're always "covered" by BSA insurance as a Scout leader on a scout outing. Whether or not BSA insurance (and your personal liability insurance) would be on the hook for $$ in case something goes wrong would be the only thing affected by not following the rules. Follow the rules...less exposure for you and the BSA. You're still covered by insurance either way.

 

 

[perdidochas]

You were right.

 

There are exceptions for a pool with lifeguards, so you could probably get away with shallow end/deep end, instead of swimmer/beginner/non-swimmer. That said, SSD is not that hard. Take the online course, and print out the G2SS.

[clemlaw]

Thanks for the input, everyone.

 

>>>>Don't burn bridges too quickly...slow and steady and you'll be able to turn around the pack attitudes over time, particularly for things that are a potentially large safety issue.

[moosetracker]

Alfansome- can you clarify this (or anyone else)

"you're always "covered" by BSA insurance as a Scout leader on a scout outing. Whether or not BSA insurance (and your personal liability insurance) would be on the hook for $$ in case something goes wrong would be the only thing affected by not following the rules."

 

 

If I have to have my personal liability insurance pay for something due to not following BSA rules, in what way am I covered by BSA insurance?? Is there something else BSA insurance is covering.. Either way, the $$ would be what I would want the coverage for..

[John-in-KC]

As far as program goes...

 

The best way to influence others to have a good program, is for you to give your den superior program.

 

Go to Pow-Wow (or University of Scouting). Take the classes that help you improve the program you give. Look for opportunities in your immediate area. Look for resources at your District and Council. Attend Roundtable, get ideas from others. Style points get awarded for stealing other people's good ideas.

 

and...

 

HAVE FUN, for you and your youth.

[AnaMaria]

We've done pool parties at a pool with their own lifeguards on duty. According to our District Executive, it was not necessary to apply SSD requirements on top of that. Your DE might think otherwise, but I'd ask. I'm comfortable with the safety provided by the facility, but would be reluctant to have a swim event without a parent present. (Nothing to do with guidelines, just my personal comfort level.)

[Jeffrey H]

Your G2SS Safe Swim Defense concerns are valid and should always be considered for your swim event.

 

Our Pack has swim events at a public pool with 2 or 3 certified lifeguards on duty. We are very safety conscious, but we cannot apply strict adherence to Safe Swim Defense in this situation. Roping off designated ability swim areas is not practical when other members of the public are present. Parents are in attendance at these "family swim events" and are expected to be responsible for their children and scout. That said, we still employ a "buddy system" as extra precaution.

 

 

[AlFansome]

Moosetracker-

Check out http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/Alerts/Insurance.aspx

 

Basically, BSA insurance is primary for registered scouters in most cases. For unregistered volunteers, it's secondary to the personal policies.

 

Also, check out the last paragraph regarding "Official Scouting Activities". The implication is that you do an activity not allowed by the G2SS, then BSA insurance doesn't kick in.

[eisely]

It seems to me you handled things just right. The biger issue is the apparent lack of awareness on the part of other adult leaders of the mere existence of safety rules and policies. The most informative part of the newer versions of G2SS are the pages showing what activities are permitted for different levels in the scouting program. Maybe you ought to hand out copies of those graphics at your next meeting.

 

Of course we always follow our paint ball outings with cliff diving at 50 feet.

[acco40]

We've done pool parties at a pool with their own lifeguards on duty. According to our District Executive, it was not necessary to apply SSD requirements on top of that.

 

AnaMaria - I think there may be some miscommunication between you and the DE. Safe Swim Defense standards apply at backyard, hotel, apartment, and public pools; at established waterfront swim areas such as beaches at state parks and U.S. Army Corps of Engineers lakes; and at all temporary swimming areas such as a lake, river, or ocean.

 

Now, one of the things needed is for response personnell/lifeguards and the pools that supply their own lifeguards may be fine for this role.

 

Now to the original question - As a Scoutmaster I had the committee plan a laser tag event. I let my boys play laser tag. However, I stated that as parents, if they wanted to organize a get together of their sons to go play laser tag - go for it. Just don't call it a troop or patrol outing and I would not go as a Scoutmaster but possibly as a Dad.

[SSScout]

G2SS and SSD are what all Scout leaders (Cubs too!) should start with. Absolutely, go over with the boys, good, safe behavior at the pool.

If you think about it, all the SSD things (subsandwiche?) are things that any pool operator, public or private, would want to consider. Your parents AND Cub leaders need to be mindful of them. Deep water needs to be respected by the beginners and you will find the pool staff lifeguards will not complain if your boys are the most respectful and careful ones in the pool.

If you want to test your Pack for Swimmers and Beginners, ask the pool staff how you may cordon off a section for your swim test. If it isn't too busy , should be no problem. If you rented out the whole pool, ask folks to come 1/2 hour early to give the test.

 

MiF, KiS&S!

[IM_Kathy]

part of this would actually be determined by the pool set up. Our local pool already has areas marked off at depths that are the same as BSA safe swim defense... so then that just requires doing swim tests the day off, and having leaders discuss buddies and buddy checks... and talking to the lifeguards that a leader will need to have them blow whistle and do buddy checks periotically during the event.