Den Camping.........But not really?

[ScoutNut]

A district trainer is NOT a "higher-up at the district level". He is a volunteer, and they can spread incorrect information with the best of them.

 

The section titled "Family Camping" is simply a description of what would be considered family camping. It states that it would have Cub Scouting program elements, NOT that it can be done as a Cub Scout DEN. NOWHERE in that paragraph does it state that family camping can be done at the den level.

 

However, in the section directly above it DOES state, in BOLD typeface, that overnight camping by Tiger, Wolf, and Bear dens is NOT ALLOWED. Notice it does NOT specify overnight camping, except for Family Camping. It states overnight camping as a den. ALL overnight camping as a den.

 

Council sponsored camping can be family camp style, or it can be resident camp style. But the ONLY time you can register as a DEN is if it is a WEBELOS den. All other times it is individual registration, or registration by the Pack.

 

If you want to know what your council/district really allows, call your council offices and talk to the person who is in charge of approving tour permits.

 

 

[83Eagle]

The info is coming from the senior district exec. So, I'm gonna go with what I'm being told.

[Eagle92]

Gotta,

I hate to say this, but as a former pro I can tell you that SDEs do not know it all. Heck I had to tell an SDE running summer camp, and hence NCS certified, that A)a youth protection violation did occur and he needed remove the peson form camp and call the SE ASAP, B)remind him that the COPE Course did need a certified COPE director out there running the course, including the low elements, and C) Safety Afloat did apply to the canoe trip he planned for the CITs so he better have a certified lifeguard in the canoe with my non-swimmer.

 

I can also tell you that you need to follow the G2SS, and if there is ANYTHING questionable in it, side on the stricter understanding, Somewhere posted on an offical BSA website states that if you do an unapproved activity with your unit and an accident happens, BSA insurance will not cover it. And I have seen one person have their BSA membership revoked b/c they did not follow G2SS in the late 1990s. I am not going to comment on the legality of the isurance issue but that is found but checkout this site:

 

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/Alerts/Insurance.aspx

[83Eagle]

Eagle92, let me say that this news came as a surprise to me because for 2 years as DL I've focused on the "Dens cannot overnight camp" statement in big bold letters, as noted.

 

And, I don't see any of our dens champing at the bit to go Den Camping anytime soon (including the Webelos, but that's another issue). Everybody's happy with Pack Overnighters and district camps.

 

But what frustrates me is that you can tell me one thing. Then my district tells me another. Then I talk to two different Packs and see two different ways of doing things.

 

So, I can take a strict interpretation as you suggest and tell any interested non-Webelos Den (as unlikely as that scenerio might be) that "no you cannot camp as a Den overnight, period, end of story." But what about when a Scout in this Den says, "Well, my friend in so-and-so troop who is a Wolf did?" (again, as unlikely as that might be). Or better yet, DL says "Well, I was at XYZ training session that you suggested I go to and they said something different than you told me?" This is maddening and is frankly a big time-waster as CM that I do not have to waste.

 

Perhaps the practical answer is, "Well, file the tour permit and see what happens" but that is totally bass-ackwards.

[clemlaw]

I did look over the G2SS, and here's my take.

 

Admittedly, the first paragraph of the G2SS is somewhat confusing, because it prohibits "overnight camping by dens as dens", but doesn't really define what it means with the term "as dens". It seems pretty clear to me that the intention is to prohibit the den from going on a campout "as a patrol", so to speak. The activity of "overnight den camping" by Webelos is allowed, so it seems to me that the first paragraph makes clear that other Cub Scouts cannot participate in the particular activity described in the Webelos paragraph.

 

The second paragraph states that Tigers (and presumably Wolves and Bears as well) can participate in "pack overnighters" or "council-organized family camping." (If read literally, Wolves and Bears are nowhere specifically allowed to go to day camps, pack overnighters, or council-organized family camping, even though Tigers are allowed to do so. So the only reasonable construction of the second and third paragraphs is that the second paragraph applies to Tigers _and above_, and that the third paragraphs lists the _additional_ activities that Wolves, Bears, and Webelos can participate in.

 

In your case, the council is not organizing it, so it's not "council-organized family camping." The only way the event is permitted is if the activity qualifies as a "pack overnighter".

 

The definition of a "pack overnighter" is that it is (1) pack organized, (2) involves "more than one family from a single pack", (3) focused on age-appropriate Cub Scout activities, (4) conducted at council-approved location. Then, there are additional requirements, such as BALOO, etc.

 

Notably, the definition of a pack overnighter does not require families from all dens, nor does it even require families from different dens. It merely requires "more than one" family. In other words, there need to be at least two families. But even if both of those families are from the same den, the fact still remains that they are "more than one family from a single pack".

 

Therefore, two families from the Bear den would make up a (very small) "pack overnighter", as long as it is pack organized and the other requirements are met.

 

The critical factor, it seems to me, is not the identity of the families who show up for the event, but whether it is "pack organized". Therefore, it seems to me that it needs to go through the same process as other pack activities, which would probably mean being approved by the Pack Committee.

 

The way I read this, there is no requirement that all members of the pack be invited, as long as it is "pack organized" and at least two families participate. However, unless there's a good reason not to, IMHO, I would invite other dens as well. That would pretty much lay to rest any doubts as to whether this event was indeed a "pack overnighter". But again, that's not really necessary, as long as there is at least "more than one family from a single pack" participating.

 

Keep in mind that this is a _safety_ rule. When you do that, it becomes clear that the event is OK. The inclusion of Tigers and Wolves would make it more clear that this was a "pack overnighter". But why would the mere inclusion of Tigers and Wolves make the event any more safe than it already is? (But again, having said that, I would invite the other dens, just to put the matter to rest once and for all.)

 

And, of course, if the council approves the tour permit, then they have resolved whatever ambiguities exist, which is their job to do. But when applying, I would bill it in terms of being a "pack overnighter". However, a scout is Trustworthy, so you should probably make clear when applying that this pack overnighter will consist mostly or entirely of families from one particular den, if that is indeed the case.(This message has been edited by clemlaw)

[moosetracker]

So where does BALOO come into this.

 

Like if 2 families of a den go on a pack organized campout, doesn't one adult of those 2 families need BALOO?.. Or if you skip the whole pack organized, and just do family camping.. Does anyone really need BALOO?

 

Just wondering as I am taking BALOO training myself this weekend. Then I want to promote offering a course to our district, which has never done BALOO training, nor promoted it. Some Packs have gone to training in neighboring district. But I think more just eithe don't camp, or do "family" camping because our district doesn't promote it as something important they should have..

 

Maybe it isn't something important that they need, if they just always call it family camping and the BSA insurance will stand behind it.

[Gary_Miller]

Well lets just not follow the BSA Safety manual because it does not fit in to what we want to do. Now thats being a responsible leader.

 

I think the guidelines are very specific and they start on page 17 of G2SS.

 

There are age requirements and there are camping opportunities requirements. And because they are all in bold print they are BSA rules and policies, not suggestions or guide lines.

 

There are only two categories of Cub Scout overnighters.

 

Council-Organized Family Camp.

 

And

 

Pack Overnighters.

 

They both have specific rules and policies that MUST be followed.

 

Tiger, Wolf and Bear Cub Scout dens is not approved for overnight camping.

 

Moosetracker, to answer your question. Yes, BALOO must have been completed by at least one adult on a pack overnighter.

 

With the exception of the Webelos Den, Dens are not allowed to overnight camp as a den, in any situation.

 

 

 

[SSScout]

*sigh*

 

BALOO

 

G2SS

 

and..."Cub Scout Outdoor Program Guidelines for 2007" (actively reffered to by the Council Cub Camp Program):::

 

http://www.boyscouts-ncac.org/openrosters/DocDownload.asp?orgkey=1933&id=33083

 

...which talks about CSDC, Pack Camping, Cub Scout Resident Camp, and oh, just oodles of things to complicate your mind...

[shortridge]

gotta run -

 

That's what happens when you have a national program with thousands upon thousands of volunteers who aren't always properly trained.

 

Just because such-and-such Wolf den did something that clearly goes against the written rules and got away with it doesn't mean it's OK!

 

Yeah, it's aggravating. Yeah, the rules could be a lot more clearly written. But in this case, it's pretty clear. Other than Webelos, dens can't camp on their own. Pretty simple to me.

[Pack212Scouter]

I can't tell you how many DEs, Council representatives, and Council volunteers make statements that are not based on facts. (For instance I had that Council staff tell me two summers ago that a flag can't be retired unless it is flow that day). Anyway, the long and short of it is this....

 

A Tiger, Wolf, or Bear Den can't decide to go off camping on their own. Other than Webelos, all other Cub Scout camping must be done as a Pack Overnighter with a BALOO trained leader and under the supervision of the Pack. I suppose if you "really" wanted to, the Pack could make an overnighter restricted to one rank, but I don't know why you would do so. Doing so is exclusive to the other members of your Pack since it is technically a Pack event. There are only three types of camping allowed for Cub Scouts. Resident Camps, Pack Overnighters, and Webelos Den Camping. The fourth that people often use to try to get around this is the category of non-official family recreational camping on Scout property.

[moosetracker]

The fourth that people often use to try to get around this is the category of non-official family recreational camping on Scout property.

I would think the same would go for family camping on private property too.

I think back on when my son was in CS. It was before Pack camping was allowed. I believe Webelos was as I heard rumors of it back then, but our DL was not into it.

Anyway our Pack did one Pack campout a year under the guise of Family camping we went to private property. We had organized games and such. We held our graduation ceremony from one rank to the next where the CM put on a hat with fur and horns that looked like the (Fred Flinstones Grand Pu-Ba hat). Etc etc. Defiantly a Pack event.

So just looking back, if someone got hurt during these events in this sue-crazy world would the Pack & CO really not be liable? I mean if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck.. are the courts going to believe you when you tell them it was not a duck?

So now with the fact that camping Is allowed for Packs under certain circumstances, and it seems people are mis-interpreting the rules. Would the BSA cover you, or are you on your own.

I what I read, I think if you filed a tour permit for pack camping, had someone BALOO trained yet only invited one den from the pack, it is against the rules, but BSA would cover you. But if you do not file a tour permit, have no one BALOO trained, and call it family camping. It would not be covered under BSA insurance and you and your CO would be on the hook.

But, that is my interpretation of when BSA insurance would and would not cover an in good faith mis-interpretation.

 

Am I right with this assumption?

 

[83Eagle]

-sigh-

 

Makes me envy the Girl Scouts. My Girl Scout daughter has been going camping several times each year, going back as far as first grade if not even kindergarten if memory serves. (And as you probably know, troops are like single-grade Dens). Just plan the trip and get event insurance from the council, or something like that. Compared to them the Cub Scouts are scared of their own shadows.

 

What do we say so often here? KISMIF? More like MICKTF (make it complicated, kill the fun). I understand the reasons for the rules but it doesn't help when they're not universally interpreted and applied, even by those who teach them! Then they're no longer rules, they're guidelines or suggestions.(This message has been edited by gotta run)

[Eagle92]

Gotta,

That's one reason why BSA, and other organizations for that matter, are going to online/video training; consistency. I know for American heart Association BLS and Heartsaver training, the instructors plug in the video, and are really there to monitor that the folks are doing it correctly, and for testing. The video does the work. I bet that IOLS and BALOO will soon come out with video formats, with instructors there to showcase specific gear and to demonstrate skills. So part of the problem IS inconsistencies in training. Heck I know my BALOO training was a joke, being completely indoors. And I know my training course needs improvement, I need to get more equipement that packs woudl use instead of backpacking gear.

 

Another part of the problem is that BSA changes policies, and it takes forever to get filtered to those of us in the field. One good example is no more smudgepots, tuna can stoves, Pepsi stoves, and other homemade equipment that uses liquid fuels. That policy came out in December, and folks still have not heard about it. i had some folks ticked off at me this past weekend as I wouldn't use smudgepots for the OA Callout Ceremony at the district camporee.

 

Another problem is that I do not think some packs fill out the proper paperwork, or attend training for that matter. I know of a pack that I never, ever see doing training. Their philosophy is "we are doing this for our kids, and if we can't take our kids with us, then we're not doing it." They do not attend RTs, training, anything, and I have a feeling they will be the first ones complaining when all their leaders who haven't done YPT are dropped from their charters.

 

Also I think the training records are so screwed up, council's do not know how to really verify that training has been completed, and thus approve those units that do turn in paperwork. Then again some of the program codes are so narrowly defined, i.e. according to training codes only ARC First Aid and CPR with AED is listed, none of the other programs, including AHA which creates the CPR procedures that everyone follows, are listed. I think they just approve it.

 

 

EDITED:

Forgot to add, in my expereince while girl scouts can do more things at a younger age, there are A) a lot more policies and paperwork involved than the BSA, B) programming is not as strong with constant changes to program (I actually had GS leaders coming to my scout shop buying the old Program Helps, How To Book, and other program materials to spice up the GS program), and C) maxes out a lot earlier on opportunities and activities than the BSA, hence why I see lots of GS join Venturing.

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

[83Eagle]

Also I think the training records are so screwed up, council's do not know how to really verify that training has been completed, and thus approve those units that do turn in paperwork.

 

This is essentially what I heard at a recent roundtable. "The council's records are a mess, so if they don't have record of the training that you have, tell us what you have." Uh...ok.

 

The GS/CS comparision is a whole different topic...strengths and weaknesses to each of course. It's just in the back of my mind when I come across the issue of "Why can't I do this with our den/pack when my daughter's been doing it for years?"

[Oak Tree]

if you do an unapproved activity with your unit and an accident happens, BSA insurance will not cover it.

 

Note that this refers specifically to the list of "Unauthorized and Restricted Activities" and not to other violations of the rules.

 

So there is no insurance for ATVs, boxing, karate, chainsaws, abandoned mine exploration, football teams, fireworks, hang-gliders, hot air balloons, parachuting, go-carts, motorbikes, hunting, jet-skis, parasailing, bungee jumping, water chugging, technical tree climbing, paintball, and laser tag. See the G2SS for precise wording - my paraphrase covers boys in troops.

 

Other than those items, coverage is provided for everything except intentional and criminal acts.