Den Camping.........But not really?

[Scoutfish]

Now see....Those are the answers I was looking for.

 

I NEVER said I was gonna skirt the rules and alow a DEN to go camping.

 

Matter of fact, the very first ting I said was( you can quote it):

 

"Now, right off the bat, I want to explain to them that you can't camp on the den level"

 

So, you'd think I made it clear I wasn't endorsing DEN level camping.

 

After I explained the propossed dynamics of the campout, I also stated( again, quote it if you want) :

 

"Now, in my opinoin - which I am well aware may be very, very wrong - the fact that there are two seperate dens changes it from den camping to pack camping."

 

So again, I was not deliberately trying to brak rules, but was of the mindset that since two different dens were wanting to do this, that it was no longer a den thing, but a pack thing.

 

I even said I was well aware that I could be wrong about it.

 

Then I asked for you guys to set me straight because ( quote again):

 

"I'm pretty sure I know, but that whole 2 den thing is what is throwing me off."

 

So, I do appreciate the answers, but the tone of some of them flat out make me wonder how many people get turned off from scouting.

 

Scoutnut, while the advice you gave was technically correct( about den vs pack)and I appreciate it since that was what I was asking...... You totally and completely turned an honest question into a personal gripe for an action that was not there.

 

 

 

 

 

Why am I in the program if I do not intend to follow it? REally?

 

Let me ask you this: Why do you give advice and answer inquiries if you do not actually read or understand them?

 

WOW! How arrogant of you to misread, misunderstand something, and then chastize me when in fact, you were completely off base and flat out wrong.

 

Basically, you took somebody seeking advise because THEY WANTED TO DO THE RIGHT THING, and blasted them for doing the wrong thing!

 

Now, I personally can let it roll right off my back, but I can very well imagine somebody getting the same kind of responce from you and deciding that they will NEVER ask you anything again!

 

As far as my honesty, if I was planning on being dishonest, cheating the system and going against the program...why would I bother asking anybodies advice? If I was going to sneak by or flat out ignore the rules, I'd just do it.

 

 

[ScoutNut]

>>"As far as my honesty, if I was planning on being dishonest, cheating the system and going against the program...why would I bother asking anybodies advice? If I was going to sneak by or flat out ignore the rules, I'd just do it."

[Scoutfish]

Now,I know that you or I could say something in a jokingly sarcastic tone, and it would be lost in here. Or maybe somebody says something tongue in cheek and again, without audio - totally lost.

 

But I feel that I made it completely clear ( at least by the third post I made) that I wanted to do the right thing.

 

"Here's my position: I want to accomidate them if it's aloowed and possible to do it. I'm not gonna say wether they should or shouldn't."

[ScoutNut]

You stated in your very first post that you knew what the BSA rule was on den camping.

 

What is with your comment - "I'm not gonna say wether they should or shouldn't."

 

You are the Cubmaster.

 

It is your job as CM to tell leaders they shouldn't do something when you KNOW they are/will be breaking the BSA rules.

 

And, you do know.

 

The whole 2 Bear dens are the same as an entire Pack, well, really? That's just rather unbelievable. So is the concept that if you tack a den meeting on the front end and don't stay for breakfast, it's not camping.

 

 

 

 

[Eagle92]

'Fish,

Some of the folks have been in Scouting for as long as I have or longer. When you see units that deliberately break the rules, and then something happens, it does hurt the rest of us in the long term. Why do you think the G2SS came into existence? That's why some folks get really upset.

 

I think turning it into a pack campout is the best idea. second best would be making it day activities/meetings. I wouldn't do multiple den campouts b/c A) it isn't allowed and B) don't want to burn out hte parents. yep I've seen parent's get burnt ot on camping after a few hours.

 

Good luck.

[JoeBob]

Scoutfish,

 

You have a unique situation that I think makes many of us envious. A CO with the facilties to host overnighters onsite, close to home, and you're invited! I know I'm jealous.

Regular overnight sleeping forays (I didn't call it camping) with the two Bear dens should lead to great bonding between boys and dads.

 

Like I said earlier, it's not a camping trip; it's a sleepover at the CO's house.

 

Go for it.

[Scoutfish]

Scoutnut.

 

 

Okay, I can agree that a misunderstanding happened at the beginning.

 

 

But for you to argue what I meant and what I am thinking is 100 percent without a doubt PURE ARROGHANCE! I told you what I meant, what I was looking for.

 

I do not care for, nor will I accept you wanting to argue my intent! PERIOD!

 

I am telling you that because it was more than one den, I wasn't sure.

 

If you want to call me a liar, then do it, don't be chicken!

 

And as for my comment: "I'm not gonna say wether they should or shouldn't."

 

Well, Since I wasn't sure, I did not want to say no when it might be they could. Likewise, I was not gonna say yes, when the possibilty existed that they couldn't.

 

Instead of just tossing out an answer, I called my council office which gave me a "definant maybe" for an answer.

 

So I thought to myself: "Hey! I know, I'll ask the advice of some very knowledgeable and experienced scouters.

 

Guess what happened? Some gave me answers.

 

Some decided that( even though I specifically asked for the right thing to do)... I was trying to circumvent the rules.....then took it upon themselves to look down their nose at me.

 

Thanks. I'll be sure to remember that next time I need advice or want to witness some scout spirit.

[Scoutfish]

As for everybody else....

 

Thanks, I appreciate the answers and advice.

[83Eagle]

I was asking our district trainer a question about WLOT as it relates to Webelos Den camping, and he gave me this little tidbit in an email, which relates to this topic...

 

"...you had said that Dens couldnt go camping, and according to the Guide to Safe Scouting you are correct. But you can do family camping, where the parents (or parent) accompany the cub scout for overnight camping. This is recommended to be done at the pack level, but could also be done for a specific den. The parents are responsible for their child."

 

Well, this came as a complete shock to me because as we all know, "Overnight camping by Tiger, Wolf, and Bear Cub Scout dens as dens is not approved and certificates of liability insurance will not be provided by the Boy Scouts of America."

 

But the clarifcation provided by our district is that there's Den camping (where you might not have every boy's parent there, just that every boy is "assigned to" a specific adult), and there's Den family camping (where every boy has a parent). The former is OK only for Webelos; the latter is ok for other den levels.

 

So under this interpretation it appears the OP's scenario is within the rules.

 

[Oak Tree]

The Guide to Safe Scouting's wording on this is really terrible. I don't understand why they break out "Family Camping" without clarifying what context they are talking about it in.

 

At any rate, the above interpretation is not what I'd come up with. But I'd just say - hey, the whole pack is invited if they want to come. If no other dens show up, not the problem of the den that does.

 

But if you just call it family camping and say that that's ok regardless, then you're good. Really, it's hard to see a problem here other than just trying not to intentionally break the rules. Sounds like a good activity to me.

[83Eagle]

I had replied back that this interpretation surprised me, and got a follow up message...

 

I have attached the Guide to Safe Scouting but again they contradict themselves on the same pages. The information for Camping is on Pg. 17. It will say that dens cannot overnight camp, but packs can, but when family camping all bets seem to be off (siblings can also attend if you desire).

 

So, in our district at least, there would be no need to try to call this Bear camping event that generated the question a pseduo-Pack-overnighter. Just call it family camp.

 

It is amazing how much variation there is between Packs, between responders on this forum, between districts. Clearly this is a point of differing interpretation. If they can't clean up the verbiage to eliminate that, perhaps they should list a number of different scenarios to describe how the rules would apply to each.

 

All I will say that as a DL and now CM who is looking to have the Pack and Dens do as much as possible--and the boys WANT to camp--this has been a huge point of frustration for me. It really gets to the point where you end up doing what makes sense and what everyone agrees on and just hope that nothing goes wrong, which isn't the way it should be. I don't mind a loose interpretation of the rules if it benefits the boys, but I want to keep my butt out of hot water also.

 

I keep thinking back to when I was recruited as a Tiger leader two years ago..."One hour a month!"

[Oak Tree]

I want to keep my butt out of hot water also.

 

As long as you are using a plausible interpretation of the rules, there won't be any problem. Well, you could always have problems - kids can get hurt on any trip - but the problem won't be because of the interpretation of the rules.

 

I look at it this way - if everything goes fine, no one's butt is in hot water. If things go wrong and a kid gets hurt and the parents blame you, they will blame you whether or not you were following their exact interpretation of the rules.

 

Go out, follow the rules as they make sense the best you can, do your best for the kids, and the rest will work out. Enjoy the time.

[clemlaw]

Back when I was a Cub Scout, we never went camping. At the end of Webelos, we had a one night campout. I think the reasoning was that we might be attacked by dinosaurs, who still roamed the earth, so it just wasn't safe for us to spend the night out of the relative safety of our caves. Instead, we spent most of our time doing various "craft" activities that the Den Mother had gleaned from the pages of the even more ancient issues of "Pack O' Fun" magazine that seemed to be handed around from den to den.

 

In short, Cub Scouts was kind of boring back then. But many of us stuck with it anyway, and eventually graduated to Boy Scouts, where we were allowed to camp in actual tents.

 

I have been pleasantly surprised to learn that Cub Scouts are actually allowed to do "dangerous" things these days, such as sleep in a tent. They seem to enjoy it, and I don't see much evidence of very many of them getting burnt out on the concept of camping. (Some _parents_ might get burnt out on the concept of camping, so that might be a valid concern.)

 

Doing it six times a year might be ambitious, but I doubt if even that will get kids burnt out on camping, especially if it's just one night. (If you're going to break camp without breakfast, then I would recommend having some kind of instant breakfast, maybe just donuts and juice, along with a confirmed source of coffee for the adults.)

 

To help avoid burnout, it probably would be a good idea to have some warm dry facility nearby (possibly their own house) where they could retreat if the whole family was miserable at 3 AM. I suspect that in most cases, the parent will make the "too miserable to continue" call before the Cub Scout does.

 

In short, I think it's an excellent idea, as long as the kids who are camping actually want to be camping. And I suspect they do.

 

As for the legalities, I haven't read all of the guidelines that have been quoted, but if you're going to do it, you really ought to do it completely on the up-and-up, with no attempt to twist the rules, no matter how tempting. Right off the top of my head, I would say that you can probably do so by: 1. Making it a family camp, where each Cub Scout is under the direct responsibility of a parent or adult family member, and 2. Having the pack committee sanction this as an official pack event. It might also be advisable to have other dens invited. In that case, as pointed out above, the invitations should be real, and not, "you're invited because of the rules, but please don't come."

[Pack212Scouter]

Guide to safe Scouting can't be any clearer on this....

"■Overnight camping by Tiger, Wolf, and Bear Cub Scout dens as dens is not approved and certificates of liability insurance will not be provided by the Boy Scouts of America."

 

The section on "family camping" etc. is by way of explanation of the types of camping, NOT an out on who can camp.

[83Eagle]

All I can tell you is that I was told by the higher-ups at the district level that "family camping" is allowed. So (at least for now), if a non-Webelos den in our pack ever did want to go family camping as a den, I would not feel like they were skirting the rules. And the scenario described by the OP would be allowable.

 

The interpretation is that the "Overnight camping by Tiger, Wolf, and Bear Cub Scout dens as dens is not approved" is the camping that looks like overnight camping by packs. In other words, at a pack overnighter you might have every parent there, but it's not required and you only need to have each youth "responsibile to a specific adult." No one disagrees that this is not allowed at the Den level. They just say that family camping is a different animal in its own section, so if you want to camp other than as a Pack or at a council-organized event (i.e., as a Den), it has to be "family camping." To me it's also an interpretation that makes sense, because when you have an event where parents are there and responsible for children (and you have a BALOO person of course), you're providing even greater supervision than at a pack overnighter.

 

Now I could certianly argue the other viewpoint just as well. In other words, in the "Cub Scout Overnight Opportunities" section, there are only two types of opportunities listed and neither one mentions "Den."

 

The guidelines are far from clear on this issue as proven by the differing interpretations on the matter and a wide range of practices out there.