Rogue Den Leader?

[ajhash]

What do you do when a den leader will not attend leader meetings and will not tell you why? How do you handle a situation where a den leader clearly has a problem with his fellow pack leaders for some unknown reason, and has decided that he will work with the boys in the den, but not be on the same page as the rest of the pack?

 

One of the reasons this bothers me so much is that my son is in his den, and I'm an Assistant Cubmaster, and I would be more than willing to take the den over, but he doesn't seem to want to give it up. He just won't cooperate with the programs we've set up for the pack! Any advice?

[The Blancmange]

You need to discuss this with your Cubmaster, Committee Chair, and Chartered Organization Representative (The CC and COR may be the same person). Has anyone ever talked to the DL about the perceived problems? There really isn't enough information here to form an opinion about whether what he has done merits removal. But assuming the Pack leadership agrees and he refuses to change, the COR is the person who has the ultimate authority to remove a leader. Ideally, the CM and Committee would be in agreement. But those are the people you need to talk to. Propose the solution you mention. If they don't agree, and the situation is still unbearable for your son, you might need to shop for a new pack.

 

[edited for typos and clarity](This message has been edited by the blancmange)

[Basementdweller]

Well, first it is his Den to lead.

 

As a cub master I keep my nose out of the Dens as much as I can. as long as the attendance is consistent, boys and parents are happy and they are advancing who cares, as long as, he is following the youth protection guidelines that is.

 

So what if he doesn't come to leader meetings, I have one gal who bowls during the committee meeting time. We changed the night, guess what she now bowls that night, no biggy. The boys in her den are happy and they all advanced last year. We reverted back to the original night which as better for everyone else.

 

 

[ScoutNut]

What exactly do you mean by "not be on the same page as the rest of the pack"?

 

What Pack programs is he not cooperating with?

 

Are the boys (your son included) having fun, learning, and working on various requirements?

 

Nowhere is it required that a den leader give a reason every time they miss a meeting. I am assuming that you, as assistant CM, are at all Pack Leader meetings. Why can't you, as a den parent, simply act as the representative for your son's den at the meeting? After the meeting, stop by the den leaders house to give him an update of what he missed.

 

I don't understand why you have an issue.

[JoeBob]

I guess I was a 'Rogue Den Leader' for awhile.

I felt that the Leader meetings were overly long and unproductive. I had to choose between tennis practice and leader meetings, and so I only made the meetings on rainy nights.

Now that I'm CM, I'm gonna work hard to make sure that the meetings move quickly and stay on a short track.

[Gary_Miller]

While I think its important that all leaders attend the pack leaders meeting sometimes its not possible for many reasons. So as long as DL is providing the information the committee needs, and as long as the leader makes sure their den fulfills their responsibilities for pack meeting I don't see a problem.

[sherminator505]

I don't think that being a no-show at pack meetings makes a Den Leader "rogue." There may a perfectly logical reason for this, particularly if the den meets on a different night from the pack. Maybe the Den Leader has something going on in the family on pack meeting nights. Mystery explained.

 

Or perhaps the Den Leader has a problem with one of the other leaders in the pack and that is the reason for non-attendence. This is a problem to be addressed, no doubt, but I would be hesitant to blame the Den Leader before I know what is really going on.

 

If you are concerned that this Den Leader is truly setting out to do damage to the pack program, I would send someone that I know gets along with this Den Leader to attend a den meeting or two and see what is happening in the den. If anything actionable is found, then act. But make sure there is actually something there first.

[Stosh]

I guess I was a rogue den leader when I had my den.

 

I didn't attend any leader meetings, was faithful to my den meetings and pack meetings. Did my paperwork and no one questioned my lack of participation in a leaders' meeting.

 

My boys all got AOL (WDL) and everyone was happy except we got our AOL before it was official. The boys had a ton of fun and were excited about transitioning into Boy Scouts. What more could one ask for?

 

Stosh

[jamist649]

I can see what the original poster is saying. A Pack cannot survive unless all Dens (at least in some way) are working together. How does he keep his boys informed about upcoming PACK events? Are ideas, concerns, etc from his Den parents being passed up to the Pack and Pack Committee? I can understand missing one or two meetings, but to NOT come to any? ...and to NOT explain why? I (CM) would have a serious problem with this. If I take the efffort to organize a meeting, develop an agenda, and work toward "helping the Pack go" the LEAST this leader can do is attend, send a delegate, or explain why.

[shortridge]

First:

 

It's not "his den to lead." The DL runs the den as part of the pack, within the pack structure, under the auspices of the CO. I understand scheduling conflicts and time crunches. But you can't get the benefits of being part of a pack without giving something back to the pack.

 

Second:

 

"Help the Pack go." That's critical. If every DL decided to pull out and run their own program without communicating, what would you have? A bunch of little fiefdoms with no common program or support network. That's what a pack gets you. 'Nuff said.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

[WestCoastScouter]

I agree that more information is needed, as to what this DL does that is "out of step" with the rest of the Pack.

 

A good analogy of a pack is our Federal System of Government, the Dens are rather autonomous and able to set their own schedule and agenda, so long as within the BSA guidelines, and have regular den meetings, and boys are both advancing and having fun.

 

However, if this is not taking place... i.e. My pack had to replace a DL who just "disapeared" for 3 months and is still whereabouts unknown, then the CC, CM and COR (and maybe even the Pack Committee) should meet and discuss finding a replacement. The

[Lisabob]

I don't know if a den leader owes an explanation to folks about why he or she isn't able to attend a meeting. A simple "sorry, but I can't be there" should suffice - does it matter why? Would a note from their mother make a difference? (said tongue in cheek so don't take offense)

 

But maybe there is something else to this DL's unwillingness to attend your leader meetings?

 

Honestly, I've thought many times about offering my time as a Tiger den leader to one of our local packs. I really enjoyed working with young fellows (and their families) and now that my son is nearing the end of high school it isn't as though he needs me to be terribly active in his scouting life, so I have some (formerly) "scouting time" to give. Also, packs with a Tiger DL who knows something about the program (as opposed to brand new parents with no idea) tend to do better with retention. But - one thing holding me back from offering - is memory of the many, long, frustrating, poorly run, waste-of-time, leader meetings I have attended. If I could somehow be a Tiger DL without all that hoopla, I'd gladly volunteer again. Call it selfish, but I know lots of other folks who just dread the thought of all those adult meetings. Maybe this fellow feels the same way.

[Stosh]

When I was a "rogue leader" my CM gave me a calendar of when the Pack meetings were and whether or not my den needed to be prepared to do something, i.e. flags, bring treats, do a program, etc. that rotated around in the dens.

 

For our pack that was sufficient communication and I'm thinking that the leaders' meetings were more social than practical. I didn't attend them, so I wouldn't know. I don't know what more information I would need to "help the Pack go".

 

Stosh

[jamist649]

This type of junk is what destroys some good Packs. It almost destroyed ours. I'll elaborate :-D : Back in '07 my son joined as a Tiger, I "joined" as a Tiger Parent. Being brand new to Scouting we didn't recognize what was going on until several months later and getting more involved in leadership. CM and W2DL were husband/wife, only son (W2) was crossing over and CM and W2DL had ZERO interest in any of the other Dens, however it took me (again) several months to realize this and now it VERY apparent. My son's DL at the time was brand new also (as most Tiger leaders are) and recieved VERY little help from CM or her husband. Wolf DL was experienced but ran "his den" as he saw fit. Didn't want input from other dens, didn't help other dens, didn't ATTEND MEETINGS, and basically ran the den as a seperate unit. Well, talk about a cluster. Tigers were clueless and stumbled through the program without guidance. We had no bears that year (and only 4 new tigers) due to poor recruiting and the leadership wanting only the "cool" kids to join. It's a miracle we made it thru that first year! Anyway, Wolf DL was way "too cool" to attend meetings or other Pack events (sometimes his entire Den would sit out Pack events!) so *SUPRISE* they started a NEW PACK in the same SMALL town! It almost KILLED our Pack and NO ONE thought enough about the parents left behind to call and let us know (I was still a Den parent at the time). We went from about 35-40 Scouts to 9. Well, CM had already moved on and tossed the charter, checkbook (zero balance), and everything else to the (then) WI ADL and told him he could be CM or the Pack could fold...A Pack that was chartered in the mid-1940's. Well, he did the best he could and we stumbled along. Our "Pack" events were basically acheivements out of the "Bear" book (his son's rank at the time) due to the fact that we only had a couple of boys who were NOT bears. Fast forward to graduation of that year. We crossed over ONE Webelos, graduated 6 bears and 3 wolves...that's it. SAD legacy for a 63 year old Pack that used to nubmer in the 60-70 range. Even as still a Den Parent, I recognized that we were dying. I was outraged that ONE leader could do so much damage by pulling out and taking all of her "friends" with her. I told the CM at that time that, if he'd like, I'd recruit and lead a Tiger Den the following season. I told him that if we didn't recruit Tigers that the Pack would die. He told me (NO LIE) that he like to get his boys through and then let it fold. Uhh. HELLO, MY son is a year behind yours..where do we go?! Ok, well the rest is history. I took over as CM 3 months later 9 Scouts 2 leaders to 40 Scouts, 8 leaders, functioning committee and active program in the span of one year. I say all this not to say "look at me!" because it wasn't about me, it was about FINALLY having leadership that worked together, was interested and engaged in PACK activities and helping the Pack grow, and ATTENDED meetings!(This message has been edited by jamist649)

[WestCoastScouter]

I agree with Jamist, that DL's who dont work together can ruin a pack. I also joined as a parent a "large and popular" pack in our area. However, the leaders that had built this pack had left the year before, and the reins of leadership was given to a Webelos DL who was leaving with his son in less than a year.

 

The result, all he cared about was his son, his son's friends, and no one else. No organization, no planning, and no partisipation being allowed by anyone else. That year was a disaster, and a once proud pack of almost 90 boys slowly fizzled to about 35. At the end of the year about 10 families up and transfered to a new pack that was run by mutually partisipating and involved parents.

 

Put in most basic terms: Arrogrant and selfish leadership will destroy a pack...