School Round-up

[CPAMom]

We're covered up with new kids. Last count I heard was 40. I think this will put every den at over 10 kids. Any advice on how to get additional den leaders? How to split dens in 2?

[dg98adams]

Unless all the new kids are orphans, you have 40+ candidates.

 

You should be trying to keep dens at 8 or so. The mega dens get harder to break up the longer you let them go.

[ScoutNut]

You know the adults who have been in your Pack. Pick some from every level who you think will do a good job, and ask them face to face.

 

Splitting dens is not that hard. If you must, put all names in a hat and pull them out per den. Sometimes the split will happen naturally along new/old lines, area they live in, school, etc.

 

Remember that the Youth Protection training certificate must accompany all new adult registrations.

 

[Pack212Scouter]

Sounds like the Dens are getting really full...almost too full. We have found that your target for Den size should be Tiger, 6-8, Wolf/Bear, 6-10 with going over 10 being only with good leaders and Scouts, Webelos, 8-10. I have seen very few Dens over 10 that are well functional.

[CPAMom]

Every year we have a boat load of sign-ups on school night. Then after Christmas, it has dropped off to about 20 scouts. Some parents sign up on school night, never to be seen again, or only show up a time or two.

 

I wonder if part of the reason some leaves is because their den is too big.

[shortridge]

Don't forget to talk with your local Scoutmaster about den chiefs!

[CPAMom]

We've talked months ago with 2 local Scoutmasters about getting a den chief. Not one has been sent yet.

[perdidochas]

CPAmom,

 

Have you had your Webelos Den leaders ask for Den Chiefs?

 

In terms of quick drop-outs, I wouldn't split up dens until at least the first meeting after the sign-up. I've noticed that the great majority of drop-outs are between the signup and the first meeting.

[CPAMom]

On Den Chiefs - Yes, my husband the Webelos II leader has asked 2 local Scoutmasters for a den chief during the spring semester. They both said they would like to send one. Neither has followed thru.

[Eagle92]

I second Peri's recommendation about havuing the WDLs talk about den chiefs. They are a great recruiting tool. I actually saw a troop fold b/c they thought the Cubs at the CO 'belong to them," but would not do anything to help the pack. So when another troop sent over a DC, and had one of their ASMs also work as an AWDL, guess where all the Cubs crossed over to?

[bbender]

Some thoughts about den signups, how to get volunteers, splitting dens on the original concept of "this will put every den at over 10 kids. Any advice on how to get additional den leaders? How to split dens in 2?":

 

-- every year we have about a 15-20% drop-out between "signup" (on the list or survey when school starts) and actual commitment (applications and dues), as folks finally get it together about what they've scheduled their kids to do, or realize the BSA doesn't mean "Baby Sitters of America". So when I see 12 "sign up", experience says that is going to be 8-10. More below for when it isn't and for other numbers and getting the second (or both!) Den Leaders.

 

-- we have as part of our Pack Policy an "Every Parent Leads" rule that if you aren't a Den Leader you have to help your Den Leader run two Den Meetings, plus take on some Den or Pack Level role (which can include, say, Derby or Banquet organizing committee). Ultimately, it is up to the Den Leaders to enforce that in the Dens, and for the Pack Chair or Assistant in charge of Recruiting Leaders to enforce that in the Pack. See http://atlanta631.mypack.us/aboutus'>http://atlanta631.mypack.us/aboutus

 

-- we also have a policy when we organize that while we'd like to keep dens together, the key thing is that if we have two or more dens at any one level, there has to be an equal allocation of good adult leaders. If 7 kids return to be Wolves with a great DL and 3 assistants and 7 new ones sign up but don't have good leader material, we don't want "the new guys" to be a new den if they won't have sufficient adult leadership, since sometimes those will fail. That doesn't mean new parents are exempt from leadership, but the Pack Chair/Committee will look to see if there is sufficient strength. And usually some movement is OK with existing dens, since every den has kids who are either not really good together or are so good together that they will grow more if one is split into a new den.

 

-- so, when we have the "signup" phase like we do now, Pack Leaders and/or Den Level Leaders (either an "assistant chair" to help recruit out of that group of 14-20 families at a rank level, or a current or former Den Leader) will try to (1) line up the right number of Den Leaders, and (2) absent that, beat a variety of drums (email, but mostly calls and visits and chats at back to school socials), to get the right number of Den Leaders to volunteer. Of course, almost everyone says "I'll help (when I can)" . . . which is why our policy is no longer called "Every Parent Helps" but "Every Parent Leads".

 

-- Pack Chair and/or Rank Level Assistant Chair and/or existing/past Den Leaders will identify the best "likely suspects" and make direct "asks" to be Den Leader.

 

-- If that doesn't work out, sorting it all out sometimes takes putting people in a room (or "virtual room") and saying "OK, here's the 17 families: two of ya have GOT to be a Den Leader . . . you've all said you'll help . . . who will be willing to take all of those commitments to help, and BE the Den Leader". Someone runs down who's already volunteered to "help" and how, and then paints the picture of how with everyone helping, it will all work out.

 

-- We also point out that since our Dens meet at the same time and same location, that two dens at the same level can do a lot of stuff together (e.g., planning, openings, closings, games; often rotating from one room to the other so that two parents from different dens might put on different activities: 20 minutes with each den, and then switch).

 

-- By that point, we look hard at existing commitments and numbers. Usually, we have one Den Leader at a level, the hard part is the second Den Leader. The approach we take is often based on the actual numbers, and the Rank Level, since Webelos II Dens have more mature kids and can be larger, but Wolves need to be smaller on account of their maturity. So, if one has one Den Leader, 12 possible families, the Den Leader says "I can do 10 kids -- no more!", rather than two smallish dens of 6 (or one of 5), the goal of getting parent commitment may well be to get to 10 (but even at that level, we've ended up with a Den of 12 where there was a trio of "every meeting" assistants). But if with one Den Leader and 16 kids, two possible Dens of 8 (a great number) or 7, the goal is to really really work hard to get to the second Den Leader.

 

-- And we do have, but have never actually implemented by forcing anyone out, a concept in our FAQ that "Also: if there are not enough Den Leaders and Assistants, it might be necessary to 'turn away' Scouts, based on an inverse volunteering scale (the less a Parent has volunteered to help, the less likely the Scout will have a space in a Den for example, if 14 third graders want to be in Scouts, but only 1 Den Leader steps up, that Den Leader can set a limit, maybe 10, and the 4 Scouts whose parents have the least volunteer commitment will not be able to participate, because we cannot ask the willing Den Leader to have a Den that is too large to function)." That is immediately followed by: "Can I choose his Den? The only way a Parent can choose which Den your Son is in is by volunteering to be a Den Leader or regular Assistant." Technically, that's about the same as what would happen if there were 8 kids and no Den Leader. No Den Leader, no Den Meetings, no Den, no Scouts.

 

As noted, we've never turned someone away, but we have that as a "this is what we'd have to do" if we face that situation. Because just because someone says "I'll be a Den Leader" doesn't mean it is fair to say "now you have to take all 17 signups at the Wolf Level because no one in the other 16 families is willing to be a Den Leader". Do that, and you've got 17 kids and no Den Leader, since she just resigned!!

 

YMMV, but we get down the road with this.

 

 

Bert Bender

Pack and District Trainer

http://atlanta631.mypack.us/aboutus

 

[ScoutNut]

A comment on Den Chiefs - While a SM might be more than happy to provide them, you have to have Scouts who actually want to do the job. Having a SM assign that POR to a Scout who does not want to do it will be worse for the den than having no Den Chief at all.

 

Talk to parents in the Pack who have older boys in a Troop. If they have a connection to the Pack it is usually easier to get them involved as a Den Chief.

 

 

[dg98adams]

Den chiefs need recruited, more than to just the SM... the CM/DL need to visit Troops, & describe the role.

Since it counts as a POR, it's got to be something they are interested in ... don't forget the "ropes" and how a DC can earn them. In fact, DC can be served at the same time as a Troop POR for any Boy Scout.

[Twocubdad]

 

Den chiefs can be a hard sell, especially if they are expected to really serve in the position, not just show up now and again and make a show of having a Boy Scout at the den meeting.

 

Not every Scout wants to be Den Chief or will make a good one. Not every Scout has the willingness, interest or ability to work with much younger boys. And if that's not present, it will be a bad fit. The other big issue is time commitment. Den Chief are asked to almost double their time commitment to Scouting. Doing it right means attending all den and pack meetings and activities.

 

Just because the troops haven't sent you any den chiefs doesn't mean they haven't tried. Maybe they just didn't have any takers.

 

I often hear Cub leaders say, "I asked the troop for Den Chiefs but they didn't send any" almost as if a Den Chief is an entitlement. I've had cubmasters flat out tell me "we send you all these Webelos every year, you need to give us Den Chiefs" as if it is some sort of quid quo pro.

 

It's a two-way street. What is the pack doing to make Den Chief an attractive option for the Scouts? Has anyone offered to give the DC a ride to den meetings? Is the pack or the District offering DC training? Is someone working with the DCs to help them earn the Nation Den Chief Award (do you know what that is?) Are your DLs trained to properly use DCs? The worst thing that can happen is for a DC to show up at den meetings and spend the hour sitting in a corner. Probably the second worst thing is for the DL to dump and entire program on a DC.

 

How about for the Scoutmasters? Do the pack leaders understand that DC is a positions of responsibility for the Boy Scout? Do the DLs understand how that fits in with the Boy Scout advancement program? I generally get ZERO feed back from the pack as to the job the DCs have done and consequently have no clue if the Scout has fulfilled his position of responsibility. If a DL comes to me and says "I understand DC counts for a Scouts' advancement and I'll send you updates every month or two regarding how your Scout is performing," as Scoutmaster, that's the first den I direct a Den Chief toward.

 

Most packs could do a lot more to help recruit Den Chiefs instead of sitting back and waiting for them.

 

Sorry for the hijack.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

[Pack212Scouter]

Not every Scout is a good Den Chief. Also sometimes it is harder to get them from smaller Troops, as there are plenty of leadership positions to go around. Sometimes you get better results from the larger troops where the boys are looking for leadership opportunities.