Required training for camping

[SR540Beaver]

TnScout,

 

Looking at the pot, the soup might not look pretty. Until you've actually tasted it, how do you know whether it is spoiled or not. I hear a lot of people talk against training and Wood Badge......who have never attended. How can they form an informed opinion?

 

I'll give you some background on me and this isn't intended to sound like I'm tooting my horn. I'm fully trained. I was fully trained when I was Pack Committee Chair and now as an ASM in the Troop I serve. I took the Troop training before we even crossed over. I'm even trained as an MB Counselor even though I've never taught an MB. I'm trained in First Aid, Wilderness First Aid, CPR with AED, Hazardous Weather, Saftey Afloat, Safe swim Defense, etc. I'm Wood Badge trained and I've served on three Wood Badge staffs. I've staffed IOLS and Webelos outdoor training. I've been an ASM for the 2005 and 2010 Jamborees. I believe in training. Did I like it all? No. Did I agree with it all? No. Do I think some of it can be done better? Yes. Do I think I know better than ther BSA how to design and run the program they provide and should just go it alone? No.

 

We sit on opposite sides of the fence looking in on the other. You look over and see beaded and knotted 300 pound beavers and bears. I look over and see someone who wants to run a program that openly admits he has no desire to be trained to run. I'll take the beaded and knotted 200 pounders every time. To get hwere they are, they've put in countless hours in training and years in participating in operating a unit. Those beavers and bears have been on the untrained side and the trained side and know the value of the training. Those who refuse to go because they know better don't know what they are missing.

 

Like Moosetracker, we were part of an untrained troop when we first crossed over and after 6 months, we said goodbye. That was 2004 and we've never regretted our decision. That troop is still struggling to survive.

 

I value training because I know I don't know it all. I want our troop to be a BSA troop and not a SR540Beaver troop.

 

[Beavah]

Yah, TNScoutTroop, welcome to da forums!

 

I salute yeh for doing your best to really provide your adult leaders with da skills and experience they need to do a good job for the kids. BSA training can be a part of that, when it is done well. BSA training should never be the whole enchilada, because da BSA training just isn't that complete. So using other providers for training - Red Cross, SOLO, local outfitters and clubs - is a great thing. If yeh honestly have the personnel to do a good job with in-house training, then that's a great thing too. It tends to be more personal, more effective, and yeh tend to get a lot more people to take it than when yeh rely on council courses. If there's a good council trainer that yeh like, invite him or her along for part of your in-house sequence so that yeh get some outside perspective, and maybe they can OK yeh for da paperwork.

 

Another thing yeh might consider if yeh want to keep all da paperwork folks happy is to have someone from da unit take Train the Trainer and get OK'd to instruct. Then you can do your in-house thing for folks and sign off on their IOLS or other training requirements. Plus your good folks will be available to offer training to other units who are interested.

 

As yeh can tell, despite being a long-time volunteer, I don't buy into BSA trainin' as the be-all-and-end-all. I've seen a few units that do in-house trainin', and it's universally better than the BSA stuff in terms of outcomes. Pretty much any unit willing to invest that level of commitment to their adult leadership has the energy to put it together well. If we're honest, we all recognize that BSA trainin' is pretty spotty from place to place, and pretty generic/cursory even when done well.

 

Put another way, da BSA trainin' is like buying a box of manufactured, preservative-filled cereal, eh? It's a factory product, it's da same everywhere, and in some cases it's been sittin' on the shelf too long. It's not particularly nutritious, but it will suffice for breakfast. It's certainly better than nothin'. Doin' your own thing is like cookin' your own meal from locally-grown produce. It's a lot more work, so most folks don't bother and just swear by Lucky Charms. But it's a lot more healthy and tasty!

 

So my advice as always is to do what yeh need to do to provide the boys with the best possible experience, and don't sweat the other stuff too much.

 

Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[TNScoutTroop]

"Another thing yeh might consider if yeh want to keep all da paperwork folks happy is to have someone from da unit take Train the Trainer and get OK'd to instruct. Then you can do your in-house thing for folks and sign off on their IOLS or other training requirements. Plus your good folks will be available to offer training to other units who are interested."

 

That's a great idea. We'll look into that.

 

We've already got one leader who has committed to becoming an ARC Lifeguard and ARC First Aid & CPR instructor by next summer, and another, ex-military guy, who's pretty sure he can become a certified NRA instructor / whatever within that time frame. And, a third was a world class rower in an 8 woman boat, who's coached some national high schoolers, who's going to brush up on her white water and canoe skills. And we just had a walk-in last night who's spent 40 years in Sea Scouts, and is apparently going to make 3 boats available to us with training. We're pretty excited about the in-troop skill set that's shaping up. Now, if we just had a climber . . .

 

And, we just got the good news from our DE a few minutes ago that the 2008 OLS training a couple of us went through will still 'count'. So we're good to go on that score. Oh, and we did invite anyone from Council or District who'd like to attend our troop training sessions, to do so.

 

Once we've trained our leaders, we have no problem shoving a couple through OLS each season so the beads and beaver set will stay off our DE's back. We just want to make sure we get them first, and get them inoculated against the "method first, content maybe" approach.

 

TNScoutTroop

[ScoutNut]

It is not the "beads and beaver set" who want to see your leaders trained, it is BSA.

 

When you signed your BSA adult volunteer application you agreed to comply with the rules and regulations of both BSA and your local council.

 

I applaud what you are trying to do for the youth in your community, however you might consider studying the Boy Scout Law a bit more thoroughly so that you present a good example to your Scouts. All of the "beads and beaver" comments and trying to get around council rules, does not mesh well with the Scout Law, especially the courteous, kind, and obedient portions.

 

 

[TNScoutTroop]

Scoutnut, there is some value in what you have to say. We need to be careful in our attitude toward these guys, and phrases express attitudes. It's going to be difficult to develop language and attitudes appropriate to being in the "loyal opposition", while still reaching out to others who've experienced the same things we have. We'll think about it.

 

In turn, we would ask you to consider where this thread began. The original question was essentially, "What are the actual rules?"

 

We learned here what we already suspected: the actual rules were NOT what we were initially being told. Part of the problem is that there's not a single well-defined locus for the actual rock bottom rules of the BSA. But part of the problem, at least in this council, is that some of the professionals, in concert with those referred to as the "beads and beaver set" tend to add rules of their own. This is not the first time we've encountered this; we will be surprised if it's the last.

 

Do you really think it's disloyal or discourteous to challenge those who seek to impose the rules they have made up themselves? Or, that it is disobedient to ask questions concerning whether what we've been told is actually required, given the fact that so often it is not?

 

On reflection, this may be a topic we need to consider formally, and with the senior boys as well as the adult leaders. Scouting's values will often in today's society place those who hold them into opposition with others. How we deal with the misrepresentations and lack of integrity we have encountered in the local council can be a great teaching opportunity for the boys.

 

We seem to be discovering that there maybe a great many parents and boys disaffected by the "method first, content maybe" approach that seems to be shared by so many Scouters, including many WBr's. Communicating where we stand on this is probably essential to reaching out to these folk. Doing to in a way that reflects the Scout Law is also essential, but will be a challenge.

 

It will require two changes of us. First, we'll have to carefully consider what is right in this realm, and then attempt to do that. Second, instead of keeping these discussions out of sight as we've done, we'll need to make them visible to the senior boys, so we can model loyal opposition.

 

That's probably worth doing.

[Eagle92]

I am a big proponent of training. But I also do not beleive in wasting valuable time. I know I have a hard enough time balencing things.

 

That said, if you read the fine print somewhere in the IOLS manual, sorry I don't have it so I can't cite it for ya, it says that individuals with the IOLS skills can "test out" of the course by demonstraiting them to an instructor. Many folks don't know about it, I know I didn't when I was doing training, but it is i the book somewhere in mice type.

 

As already suggested, become a trainer. I know one guy who is now offially trained in his current POR, despite his 3 WB beads, b/c he has finally taken IOLS by teaching it at Summer camp for new leaders. He definately had the skills down pact as he was a Camping, Hiking, Backpacking, Cooking, etc MBC, he just didn't have time to take the course with his involvement with a troop, crew, and on the district committee.

[TNScoutTroop]

Thanks, Eagle92,

 

That's VERY interesting.

 

Doing it that way would be very attractive, because it would create a clear end point on the training we're doing, and parallel Scout testing closely (I assume). That sounds like a fantastic option.

 

Regarding Train the Trainer, that might work for us. It probably depends on two things.

 

First, can you guess whether it's likely to offend the 'powers that be' if we do this? If so, it's probably not worth it.

 

Second, do you know if it would be allowed to do IOLS+, without running afoul of BSA rules and regs? In other words, I can't imagine that our course will be trimmed to less than 36 hours . . . and that may not be enough. I'm assuming we're covering more than IOLS requires; certainly, we're taking more time. If IOLS is a subset of what we're doing, and we can 'embed' it in our class, that would be great.

 

Still, the 'take the test' approach may be best. That's a really appealing option.

[Beavah]

Yah, as a BSA trainer, yeh can always offer more than the BSA syllabus, eh? And you can make use of the test-out process to move quickly through parts of da syllabus that your trainees already have down. In fact, that's exactly what you should do. So of course you can offer IOLS+ in your troop. Make it a year long course if you like and include WFA, winter camping, and water safety/paddling training. So long as the trainees get da core skills as part of that, you're being completely kosher. Now if yeh decide that in your unit LNT is more important than lashing and drop lashing entirely, that's not completely kosher, but who is goin' to complain?

 

As for da rest, I'd encourage yeh not to think in terms of us vs them. The BSA is a big organization, eh? It's set up deliberately so that each CO can tailor its unit program to its own mission and needs. So you can run your outdoor emphasis program, and another unit can run a very light outdoor program with more of a service emphasis. You can interpret "show first aid for shock" as meaning identify the type of shock during a surprise scenario on the trail, choose the proper treatment, and demonstrate proper follow up. Another troop can interpret "show first aid for shock" as raising a kid's legs and throwing a blanket on him in a meeting hall. They might have 13 year old Eagles, you might not, but it's OK. You're serving different kids with different needs. No need to get in each others face about it. Then yeh can come here or to MyScouting or Scouts-L and debate da issues .

 

Something yeh often see on da adult side in the BSA is some folks who don't really have much skill or experience. That's da nature of a volunteer organization as big as ours, eh? In place of real skill or experience they'll cling to da manuals and to the myths like a drowning man to a floating piece of flotsam. Since they can't swim without aid, they'll assume everyone is like them, eh? They can't imagine anyone would let go of da life preserver and just go swim, even if the water is warm and calm, and they'll shriek "danger!!" at anyone who does. Yeh can't argue with those folks. They'll just quote da coast guard regulations and certification on their life preserver from memory because they've been clinging to da thing for so long they've never read anything else. While you swim around and have fun they'll talk about how some fellow with no life preserver went swimming in a hurricane and drowned, to show how irresponsible you are.

 

But yeh can't let that get to yeh either, eh? You wouldn't belittle a kid who had become successful getting comfortable with the water with a lifejacket on. You'd praise him for getting out in the water, and keep inviting him to go farther. Same here. There are a lot of well meaning and contributing scouters in that group, and they succeed in getting kids out camping, at least in the shallows. They're an asset. So don't think of 'em as da "beads crowd" except when yeh need to vent among friends. Think of 'em da same as your more cautious parents.

 

And definitely dont blame all us Beavahs! (This message has been edited by Beavah)

[TNScoutTroop]

Thanks. Good advice.

[Roadkill Patrol]

Just to throw my 2 cents in on the original question of which training is required, the tour permit does have the following statement:

 

"At least one adult must have completed Planning and Preparing for Hazardous Weather training for all tours."

 

It's not a hard course (which is available on-line) and it has been required for a short time now.

[JFL49]

TnST,

 

Just to be perfectly clear, the purpose of IOLS is to teach a leader the skills needed to help Scouts attain the ranks up through First Class. The syllabus is geared to the each outdoor skill listing in the Scout Handbook. IOLS is not designed to teach a leader how to camp, per se. And by its nature and title, IOLS is an introductory course.

 

Although your Council may have its own requirements (and yes, your Council is allowed to have its own requirements), IOLS is not required to take a unit (troop or pack) camping, but IOLS is required for a SM/ASM to be defined as "trained" for their position.

 

If your District or Council trainers are not at least covering the IOLS syllabus then you have a right to be upset.

 

Homegrown IOLS in my Council: it is absolutely allowed, and strongly encouraged. For example, look at this web link for an overview of how a troop can offer the program over one or multiple campouts, including self-assessment and signoff sheets (pulled directly from the course syllabus):

 

http://www.ctyankee.org/program/training/basic/smtraining

 

Eagle92 is exactly on point and the syllabus is clear - a leader can move through the Outdoor Skills Training at an accelerated pace by demonstrating mastery of a specific skill. The emphasis is on the skill, rather than on attending the course.

 

I leave it to you on selling this approach to your Council - but start with your Council Training Chair. He or she gets paid the big bucks to make these kind of things happen. Few Scouters get to the position of Council Training Chair by being irrational or unreasonable.

 

My Council is a lot like your Council: many if not most of our Trainers are also Wood Badge trained. There are plenty of beavers and bears, but very few over 250 pounds, let alone 300. In fact, I used to be a Beaver, and I don't crack 180 pounds. But 99.5% of them are dedicated, hard working leaders who have chosen training as their small contribution in the Scouting world. Most of them were in your position at one time in their Scouting careers, many still are. 99% had sons or daughters in the program. Please don't hold Wood Badge against them. And you may not want to thank them for what they taught you, but do thank them for taking the time out of their busy schedules to run the training courses. Just as they (and I) thank you for your important contribution to Scouting.

 

My 3 cents.

[TNScoutTroop]

Thanks for the further info. We've downloaded and saved the test forms. We were interested to note that they are essentially a compendium of Scoutcraft skills from the T-2-1 requirements.

 

We'll avoid the Train the Trainer thing now. Teaching adults T-2-1 is PRECISELY what we wanted to do. If we get certified, then everyone who attends is eligible for "my butt was in the chair at the right times" carding, a la IOLS. That's NOT what we want.

 

We'd much rather have un-certified training, with the result that all adults must TEST for their certification. That works perfectly with what we wanted. In fact, we talked about some sort of 1st Class for adults certification. We didn't realize that IOLS was supposed to be just that. That is really, really ideal for us.

 

It could prove interesting, though, having District guys come in to test our adults!

 

One question. The "Test out" provision is apparently part of the IOLS training guide. How can we get a copy?

 

 

[red feather]

Welcome to the campfire. I post as a SM of a troop that I serve that some years ago had been more adult led than scout led. Notice the differnce between boy led or scout led. Subtle difference but a critical one. Any boy can learn to lead but to learn to lead as a scout takes different skills and achievements.

 

When I was asked to be SM we had 3-5 active adults and 21 scouts. We know have 49 scouts and on any given meeting 10 to 14 uniformed adult scouters. Not adult leaders but adult scouters. Big differnce. As adults in scouting we should not be leaders but developers of youth leaders. (that is the hard part of adult scouting) Not to say as an adult scouter scouting is not a hoot. It is a what keeps us going. Each adult scouter has a job that allow the troop to function in the manner that the SPL and PLC directs it to accomplish.

 

Training of adults is very important in developing the program of scouting. It teaches that scouting is for the boys and not one that makes the adults and parents 'feel good' about what they and their sons are doing. With the training and the application of that training your troop will grow and develop boys into scouts into leaders.

 

Get all the training possible, develop more skills with the troop that you serve. Develop boys into scouts and stand back because they will amaze you.

 

yis

red feather

[red feather]

Reread post. An given meetin we also have 35 to 40 scouts in attendance. Lots more scouts than scouters.

 

yis

red feather

[JFL49]

The IOLS Syllabus is an official BSA publication. Your District Training Chair might be able to get you a copy. Otherwise, you can order it through your Scout Shop or directly from BSA National Supply:

 

http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/ItemDetail.aspx?cat=01RTL&ctgy=PRODUCTS&c2=BOOKS_LIT&c3=LDRS_TRAINING&c4=&lv=3&item=33640

 

I also found this with a quick Google search:

 

http://www.bacarrowhead.org/training/IntroductionToOutdoorLeaderSkills.pdf

 

Good luck.