Required training for camping

[TNScoutTroop]

Hi;

 

We're about a month away from chartering a new troop and pack. We're doing a Webelos only pack, along with the troop. We'll start off with about 15 - 20 boys, and about 15 volunteers (YPT trained) of whom 7 - 8 will be Scout / Pack leaders. We're planning to dual-register some of the leaders. At least during the first year, most outings, and camping trips will involve both sets of boys. We're trying to work out what is actually required in order to take a troop AND a Webelo-only pack camping. We're getting conflicting information from the council.

 

We're trying to work out our own adult training schedule, and were planning to do our own 'OLS' on 2 Saturdays + 2 weekends, rather than Council OLS, which several of us have already 'experienced'. Unfortunately, Council OLS is typically taught by a bunch of Wood Badgers who are long on theory and short on actual skill. We really don't want to subject new volunteers to that, nor load up their weekends more than we already have.

 

Several of us have encountered 'requirements' in the past that really weren't, so we know that sometimes it pays to push back. But we've been inactive enough over the past two years so we don't really know for sure.

 

Questions:

 

1. Is OLS mandatory for troop camping?

2. Is OLS mandatory for Webelo camping?

3. Is BALOO mandatory to Webelo camping? (we've never done Cubs b4)

4. Is BALOO mandatory & sufficient for Webelo camping?

 

What we'd planned was the troop going camping with the SM and at least 2 volunteers, and the pack going camping at SAME time and place with the CM and at least 2 volunteers, and with all Pack adults BALOO trained, but NO one current on OLS. Does this meet the rules? If not, how not?

 

Thanks

[SR540Beaver]

Welcome! Go to the source.

 

http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/Home/BoyScouts/Adults/Training.aspx

 

http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/Home/BoyScouts/Adults/Training/Trained%20Leader.aspx

 

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/training/pdf/UmbrellaTrainingJan2009.pdf

 

Wood Badge really has nothing to do with it. There are plenty of non-Wood Badgers who have no outdoor skills to speak of either. The one thing you do at least have with a Wood Badger is that they are fully "trained" for whatever position they hold in scouting. Whether that training took or not, depends on the indvidual.(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

[click23]

1. No

2. No

3. No

4. Not sure how this is different from #3.

 

BALOO is health and safety course, the outdoor, IOLS and OSWLS courses are skill courses.

 

You might want to have someone take Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Leaders. If you look here, http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/CubScouts/Resources/CubScoutOutdoorProgramGuidelines.aspx, you will find "A Webelos den leader who has completed position-specific training and Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Leaders training should conduct these events(den campout). "Should" is the important word, above that when it mentions BALOO for pack overnighters is says must not should.

 

The Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Leaders course is basically the same as IOLS, with a few bits of Webelos activities thrown in. There is a new course coming out, "new outdoor course will be a one-size-fits-all for Webelos leaders, Boy Scout leaders, and Venturing leaders. Once a person completes the training, it is not necessary to repeat it when they move to another program" I am not sure when it is coming out.

 

Where in Tennessee are you from?

[moosetracker]

Someone will correct me if I am wrong I am sure.. But Baloo is needed on the tour permit if you do Pack camping. But not Webloes camping. If your whole Pack is the webloes going camping, does this then fall under Pack camping??..

[SR540Beaver]

BALOO is required on the tour permit for pack camping which includes Webelos if they are the pack. Webelos Leader Outdoor is optional, but preferrable.

[ScoutNut]

As click mentioned, your answer, across the board, is that outdoor training is NOT MANDATORY for either Webelos den, or Boy Scout Troop camping per BSA National requirements.

 

HOWEVER -

 

Some councils have added their own requirements to National's basics. Some councils require BALOO and/or OLSWL to take Webelos camping. Perhaps your council is one of those that require additional training, and that is why you feel the information is conflicting.

 

IOLS is part of the basic Scoutmaster/Asst Scoutmaster training, and is required in order to be considered trained in those positions.

 

The BSA Guide to Safe Scouting requires that there be a minimum of 1 registered adult leader over 21 on all trips and outings. It does not require that the registered adult leader be trained for their position.

 

Why would you NOT want to be as trained as possible? Especially for a brand new Pack and Troop. Cub Scouts camp differently from Boy Scouts. Outdoor training helps insure a good outdoor program that follows BSA guidelines.

 

As for "homemade" training instead of council training, I do not recommend it. Unless your "homemade" version of IOLS has been approved by your council Training Chair it will NOT count toward the basic training requirements.

 

[moosetracker]

Scout - I was curious to see what someone would answer about "homemade" IOLS.. I was unsure and was going to ask my Council Training Chair next time I saw her if no one answered it here.

 

Is your training always at Council level & not district.. Ours is at district so if we are not happy with our district trainers, you can ask around to neighboring districts to figure out one that has Trainers that those in their district think are fantastic, and just choose to take the training in another district..

 

Your comment that your "homemade" IOLS would be 2 nights & 2 weekends.. And that your Councils training would "load up their weekends more than we already have" Makes it sound like your Council training goes more then 2 nights & 2 weekends.. We had this discussion before, some Councils are 1 night & 1 weekend.. Most 1 weekend only, my district (& others) went to one day, but I found out they have now backed it back to one weekend (little on Sunday but at least they have readded the sleep over requirement.) How long is your Councils IOLS???

 

If your "homemade" IOLS is not approved by the council, you can get by for a few years dodging the training, but soon maybe "2012-rechartering" will require your top leaders trained in order for the Troop to recharter.

[ScoutNut]

The point of using only National approved training, with a National syllabus, is that the training content is consistent from one end of the country to the other. So, weather you take IOLS in Nome, Alaska, or Miami Florida, you should be receiving the same training. Also, even if you take your training in Nome, it is still recognized by your council in Miami.

 

Unless your homemade course has been approved by your council, uses the National syllabus for IOLS, and has council approved trainers running it, there is no way it can be recognized by BSA as an actual IOLS course.

 

As Moose stated, if you are unhappy with the training given by your district/council, FIRST - give them feedback. Let them know exactly where their training had problems. Every training course I have ever attended, or ran, has had a feedback form given to the participants to fill out at the end of the course. How will your district/council know there is a problem with a training if no one will tell them.

 

NEXT - take the training in a different district or council. Because it is a NATIONAL course, you can take it from any district or council and still have it count and be recorded against your BSA membership number. I had an out-of-council Scouter tell me once that he signed up for our BALOO course because our council camp that we were holding it at was actually closer to his home than where his council was holding their course.

 

 

 

[TNScoutTroop]

If I've read correctly, the consensus is that BALOO is required for Pack camping, but that nothing else is required. Is that right?

 

Some mention was made of the council requiring things beyond National. Is there a legitimate mechanism by which the council can do that? Or do we just need to 'push-back'?

 

TNScoutTroop

 

 

 

PS: (I)OLS is just Fri PM - Sun AM, much less than our 'homemade' version. That's not the point. The point is that it is (a) one MORE weekend and (b) won't accomplish what we need to accomplish.

 

For example, we'll be training 6 - 10 adults how to use a *simple* compass, with a map and on the trail . . . so they can lead, and teach, boys to do the same. The last (I)OLS spent almost the entire training session on GPS, which is neither required, nor basic, nor reliable under many conditions. Our goal is that, when we finish, all the adults will be close to actually possessing Scout skills through 1st Class. We hope we can get it done in that time frame (about 36 instructional hours), but we'll have to see.

[moosetracker]

I was just asking how long, because you stated the trainers were long in theroy, then it seemed like they may have been so long the needed 3 or more weekends...

 

If they were spending the time teaching GPS they are not following the course as outlined.. First there is no GPS in the training course, there is time teaching simple map & compass. Second map & compass has to be a small time period because there are many other things that should be covered. Site selection, campfire, plants & animal identification, cooking...etc. etc..

 

Now although currently it isn't required.. If you are in a Pilot council, that is Piloting the program for Required training then your Council is in line with National in Requiring that Top leaders need to take IOLS before recharter this year. That your ASM's will need it by recharter next year..

 

If not, Councils can add their own rules, to strengthen Nationals' policies. That is their right, and a few are getting a head start on the required training and putting in the rules that National will be enforceing in the near future anyway. That way they have time to iron out the kinks.. That is within their right. Something I wish our Council would do as I think the proposed rollout plan in too slow and will keep everyone cranky for 3 - 5 years until it is fully implemented.

 

One way or the other your SM & ASM will need IOLS. Now if that is what your Council is requiring, in a few years, if they are not. If your Council is off the wall, then as TST stated give feedback to your council and find a neighboring council.. Sounds like IOLS (if done properly) will give the beginning basics, then you can spend another weekend and some evenings strenthening up the skills taught. That way your SM & ASM will not spend the time in your course, then still be forced to attend IOLS.. Easier to hook up with those outside your district to find out the calibur of their training staff, then to try to get that info outside of council. The neighboring Council will have a web site with email addresses for the Council or District Training contacts. Call them and ask questions about how their course is run. Do they follow the syllabus. Do they hit the basic sessions (cooking, packing & hiking, basic map & compass etc.).. TST is correct, you can take the course with a different council.

[TNScoutTroop]

Thanks moose;

 

From what you're saying, sounds like those of us who will be teaching our own IOLS need to just chalk it up as a win for the bureaucracy, grit our teeth, and suffer through another useless IOLS. We do NOT want our new leaders mis-trained by Council, and that's what will happen. Sending them will result in damage; if we go, it's just a waste of time.

 

We have no reason to expect that any nearby council will do it better. I'm sure some do, but there's no way to know how many IOLS sessions we'd have to attend to find out. Better to just suck it up, and keep our newbies away, till they know better.

 

TnScoutTroop

[SR540Beaver]

TnScout,

 

A bit of friendly advice and you can take it or leave it. If you are starting a new Pack and Troop, please, please be part of the program and not one of those that fights against the program. Each unit has it's own culture and way of doing things. That's fine and perfectly normal. We teach new parents comning into our troop how we run. When they want to go check on little Tommy and how he is doing setting his tent up for the first time, we redirect them. They have Troop Guides that teach them and supervise them, not parents. We teach them how to cook in and clean a dutch oven. But if they fill out an adult registration, we expect them to get fully trained for their position in addition to what we teach within our troop. We have those maverick troops that hate district, hate council, think they have it all figured out and go off and do their own thing totally seperate from all their sister troops. I hate to say it, but very often these are run by guys who earned Eagle. They think that because they earned Eagle 25 years ago, they know how to run a troop today. They don't. A former district training chair who is a close friend.....and an Eagle, told me that the guys who were Eagle, were the toughest to get to attend training. Reason? They were Eagle and new scouting inside and out and didn't need that BSA training. Don't be that guy.

[TNScoutTroop]

SR540Beaver;

 

Tell us now those 'lone ranger' troops are messing up with the BOYS, and we'll listen very, very closely.

 

All actions have unintended effects, and we'd like to avoid or compensate for as many of those as we can. If we can learn from the mistakes of others who've gone down the road we're traveling, we'd really like to do so.

 

But, at this point, convincing us that it's a good idea to play the game that all the beaded and knotted 300 pound beavers and bears are playing would be a pretty hard sell. Our take on it is that their game is almost all sizzle and no steak. Our focus is pretty much on keeping those beavers and bears from contaminating our new guys.

 

 

 

[moosetracker]

Well if their council is doing nothing but teaching GPS, they are doing it wrong. I have only T-S-T word on that, which may be one sided.

 

But, I think you are wrong to lump your neigboring Council Training into the same bucket without giving them a call. That almost rings of what SR-Beaver is stating, you are of the opinion, no one knows better then you. Open your mind up that you can find a good training course some where within a 1 - 2 hour trip from your home. It might not be 100% your training, but you can add and alter it to your liking after taking the course. But then all of you are Trained and informed of the BSA program, and all of you know what your modifing in the program and why, rather then you leading and others blindly following, because they have no other guidelines.

 

I was part of a troop like that. The first troop my son joined. They had their own rules that the core group made up, and we were discouraged from going to training. We all thought these rules were the BSA policies.. Well there was hazing, and drumming kids out of the troop that weren't up to par. The Board of Reviews per rank were set up to test the kids to failing if they chose they weren't up to par. They had elite sub-groups that some kids could join while others could not.. They came up with rules above and beyond what is required for Eagle that were never requirements for Eagle. (And ways that those kids they never wanted to get Eagle would fail to pass if they made it through the dificult testing BOR..) Rules like if you lost a MB blue card you had to do it over (Regardless of if it was entered at Council, or your MB Counsilor could vouch for you..).. Simply because most of us were discouraged from getting the BSA training, it allowed a core few to mold the Troop they wanted.

 

Now if your Council training is sub-par. That does not mean send them to training that isn't worth crap.. But.. Please encourage them to get good Training, so all of you are creating a Troop with equal knowledge of the true BSA policies. Then modify together where you feel the need.

 

[TNScoutTroop]

Hi Moose;

 

We just heard from the DE, and reading between the lines, the requirement to attend OLS is a case of some in the Council making up rules on their own, with no official process.

 

A couple of the experienced guys will go to OLS, just to keep the "beads and knots" crowd happy. Going out of council won't do that.

 

Regarding your horror story troop, I'm not sure that that's the direction we're going in. But, it's a worthwhile caution story to keep in mind.

 

In any case, we're not going to be keeping anyone from finding out all they want about Scouting. The website we're building links the Council, BSA National, USScouts, and more, plus we'll be adding direct links to current documents. But, we'll be linking the Wikipedia entries, and Kudu's site as well.

 

The take-away from your story, at least for us, is that we need to be sure that new Scouts and Cubs clearly understand that this is a troop with a VERY close relationship between the CO (church) and the troop / pack. There will be some requirements for the Scouts and Cubs that will be distinctive. But, we're distinguishing leaders (incl committee members) and volunteers. All leaders will have to be approved by the church, and there will be some requirements associated with that. We'll need to be careful to make those things clear up front, so nobody is caught by surprise.

 

That is something we'll probably need to make a priority. We're already getting some unexpected interest from the neighborhood, from both families and at least one old Scouter who has some great skills. And while we want to encourage that every way we can, we don't want to mislead anyone.