WestCoastScouter Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 One of our den leaders has two sons. One is a Tiger Cub, the other is in Kindergarten and not old enough for Tiger Cubs. the DL - dad has included the Kindergarten aged son in all his den meetings, has him in uniform, Tiger cub necker, has a bobcat badge, immediate recognition ect... At a meeting tonight he told another dad that he is planning on having the younger son skip Tiger Cubs and just stay with his older brother and to do Wolves with the older brother. Essentially dad wants both sons to do the same program at the same time, despite them being in different grades. He knows that the younger boy will "do Webelos for a third year" but is ok with it. Should I be concerned ? or is it no big deal, if the younger boy is enjoying scouting ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basementdweller Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 So how is the Rank advancement getting recorded if he is not old enough to actually be a member. Not a big deal in my book. I would have younger son not to a third year. Just make sure dad has him earn the AOL and he can cross over with bigger brother at 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NE-IV-88-Beaver Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 Scoutnet should not let the younger son be registered or record any advancement if his age is accurately input. What others rules will this Den Leader decide don't apply to his family as he goes along? How will he enforce rules for other members of his den when they confront him with, "Well, your sons don't have to follow the rules!" Seems like a bad situation from the start and one that will only continue to get worse, if not nipped in the bud! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greaves Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 Dad may be ok w #2 son having a 3rd year as a Webelos Scout, but I bet money #2 son will have a problem with being left behind when all his friends in the Pack move on & leave him behind. He needs to make friends with the boys in his year, not his brother's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow_White Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 I have to agree with NE-IV on this one. The CS program is designed with age-appropriate activities for a reason. And if it's ok for this kindergartener to be a Tiger, why not all kindergarteners? Why can't any first grader be a Wolf? (I assume that the younger son is not yet 7, which would trump the grade-based requirement.) I'm curious as to how long this has been going on - if it's been going on all year, why has no one made an issue of it until now? As the others have said, the records couldn't be going into Scoutnet, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow_White Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 I meant to add... If the dad is new to scouting, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt, assume that he meant no harm and didn't realize this wasn't appropriate. But how to handle it now? I would say that the younger son needs to repeat the Tiger year, although it sounds a bit like punishing the son for a problem caused by the adults. He would probably still have fun repeating those activities at this level. But three years of Webelos? I can't see a kid wanting to do that, especially when the other scouts that he has been with for years move on. Best to try and convince the parents that it is better for the younger son to be with friends his own age and participate in activities designed for that age group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastScouter Posted May 21, 2010 Author Share Posted May 21, 2010 The issue of younger son and scoutnet... The Younger son is not registered. Dad just has bought him a shirt, necker, tiger hat, ect. He started off as a "tag a long" with his older brother... It was only las month that the K aged son came wearing a full uniform. So it will be next year when he attempts to apply for his Wolf Rank that he will not be old enough.. and system will catch him. Right now dad is just buying the stuff at the store and letting son wear it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kari_cardi Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 Do you think the real issue is that the dad doesn't want to repeat the Tiger year, considering the adult partner requirement? I think a frank private discussion with the dad is in order, to find out why he wants his boys together and hopefully come up with a solution that meets the needs of everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow_White Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 Ah, sounds easy to nip this one at this point. After June 1st, younger son registers as Tiger, can earn Bobcat right away (since he already knows his stuff). Next thing you know, he'll have a whole den of new friends to do things with. If it were me, I'd be firm with dad on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle92 Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 Seen this happen before and my advice is to NIP IT IN THE BUD NOW! ( caps for emphaisi b/c this is VERY serious). I've seen it where the CM allowed it for anyone, and parents were upset when council finally came in ands aid the underaged/wrong grade youth could not earn advancement and leave. I've seen it where an under aged youth "earned" AOL and tried to crossover into scouts, and no SM would accept the youth into their troop. Again council eventually got involved and it wasn't pretty. The only person being hurt is the underage sibling.(This message has been edited by eagle92) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dg98adams Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 It's not really an issue what den he goes to, as there is no attendance policy for Cubs for den meetings, regardless of rank. But there is age/grade requirements for registering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisabob Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 I don't think this is fair to the boy, although I understand the dad's line of thinking here (it is just easier). Problems: 1. Actually doing Tigers on his own won't be such a stretch (he's what, 6? He can still find lots of fun in Tiger activities that he already visited with his older brother). Doing a 3rd year of Webelos would be different. He'd be at a very different developmental stage and probably would resent having to sit through repeats of stuff at that age. As a 3rd year Webelos, the temptation would be strong for him to say "I'm quitting" or "I'll sit this year out and just join the troop when I'm old enough" (which, in my experience, tends not to actually happen) 2. Greaves is 110% right about him being upset when all his legitimate webelos (II) friends move on to boy scouts and he has to stay back another year. 3. Moving him along to boy scouts a year early with the rest of his webelos den might be possible, but only if he meets the minimum age to be in boy scouts (10). Many 4th graders are only 9. 9 year olds cannot be boy scouts. 4. So he will be 10 in 4th grade and moves to boy scouts early - now he is probably the youngest and least mature in the troop. The transition to boy scouting is hard enough on some boys, without putting this pressure on them. Not to mention additional pressure on troop leaders, who already are dealing with a tremendous range of ages and maturity levels. 5. Just because boys are only a year apart doesn't mean they're the same, or they want to do things the same way. Additionally, both boys may lose out on their parent's attention - which is kind of the point of Tigers, in particular. 6. If this dad can do this, how many other parents are you willing to allow to do this in the future? Why have separate dens at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OwntheNight Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 A few things jump out from this that raise some flags: How does the pack leadership feel about this situation?, Are they aware that one of their den leaders is changing the rules for his benefit? It sounds like Scoutnet will catch the age, but what happens when the dad spends the next year working with his younger son on Wolf activities and then Scoutnet rejects those entries because they should be Tiger Cub entries. He's taken an entire program year, just to have it rejected by Scoutnet, and then the boy misses out on the opportunity to earn his Tiger Badge legitimately. I'm sure the father means well, but maybe somebody in the pack needs to get him signed up for leader specific training or at least a refresher course so he understands the program that is being delivered is actually age specific. Also, Just thinking ahead... When the younger son is in 2nd grade and the bear den is working on their wittling chip, Is the dad going to let the younger one do it as well? I took our Webelos to resident camp last summer and I noticed a huge difference in the maturity level of our soon to be 5th graders as compared to our soon to be 4th graders. How is that going to play out when they hit Webelos with a soon to be 3rd grader trying to mingle in with soon to be 4th graders. Hope everything works out for you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perdidochas Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 Sounds like a bad idea. Poor younger kid never gets a chance to do things with the boys his own age. I would tell him that the younger kid needs to stay back in Tiger Cubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastScouter Posted May 21, 2010 Author Share Posted May 21, 2010 The leadership was aware the the little brother was attending the meeting & was tagging along. But it was only about a month ago that the younger boy arrived at a pack meeting wearing a Tiger Cub Uniform. So we are not addressing it for the first time. But we dont want to make a mountain out of a mole hill. I think the dad who is the older son's DL, wants to have the boys only go to one meeting... making it easier on himself. (not having his sons going to different places) Maybe have the younger son to be a Tiger ? but allow him to do meetings with older brother in Wolves ? Yes I see the problem that other parents who have 2 boys to say, "Hey... I want to drive my sons to just one meeting... let my boys be in the same den?" (and eventhough they are in different grade levels) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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