Advancement of a boy that never comes to den meetings???

[CubPackComChr]

Hi, I would like other people's opinions on this topic...

We have a den leader that has two boys in the pack, boy #1 is currently a bear and boy #2 is a wolf. Originally when he was signing up boy #1 as a tiger he wanted us to let him sign up boy #2 as a tiger too even though he was too young still. We told him we could not do that. During boy #2's tiger year he only came to one or two meetings but the leader insisted that he went to all of the Wolf meetings and made his requirements and insisted he get his tiger badge. Now in the second year the boy again only went to 2 wolf meetings, 1 wolf outing and only maybe 3 pack nights. The leader recently emailed the Wolf leader and said that his son went to all the bear meetings and has completed all of his wolf achievements along with enough electives to get him 1 gold arrow and 4 silver arrows and expects his son to receive his wolf badge at the next pack night. Essentially he has found a way to have both his sons in the one den even though they should be in two different dens.

How would some of you handle this, the wolf and bear books are not the same, they do not work on the same acheivements, so how did the boy do wolf acheivements at bear meetings? The wolf leader has never seen the boys book (because he is never at meetings). What would you all do???

[nldscout]

Just say NO, its easy, only 2 letters.

 

Rules are rules and thats that.

[CubPackComChr]

I know it would seem that it should be as easy as just saying no, but I can't seem to get a straight answer from our council, some people say its not right to hold a badge away from a child and that we should just give the badge to the child, others say check the book and see if the dad signed off everything in the book, but lets face it the dad could sign off the book even if the child did not do the acheivements. This man is a very forceful and pushy man and makes people feel uncomfortable. Its hard to know how to handle it when there really is no written guideline that says "a boy must attend meetings to rank up, or his leader must approve acheivements" especially when the book says that parents are the ones to sign off that the boys do the work.

[Basementdweller]

At the Tiger, Wolf and bear level Akela can be the Parent, Den leader or any other adult. In Webelos that nonsense stops. Akela is the Den leader, Parents don't sign off requirements.

 

 

A scout is trust worthy. Let them get the rank advancement.

[ChaiAdventure]

 

I wonder what this Den Leader would say if it were one of his Bears who was attending Webelos meetings and wanted to be signed off for his Bear requirements.

 

It is a tough position since the father is also a leader in the Pack. Is it worth losing all three from the Pack over an advancement? Is this boy participating in the Bear activities and gaining something from the program?

 

It is curious that the Den Leader Dad only had his Wolf son at three Pack meetings......

 

You have a couple of choices and none of them are perfect. Is it worth losing two boys and a leader over an advancement patch? Is the leader a "problem" in other manners? Is there discontent with some of the other boys/parents?

 

As was said before, his parents can sign off on his advancement at this level. Once in Webelos, this will slow, and in Scouts, it will stop.

 

good luck

 

[jhankins]

Parental advancement is going to go away soon -- it's going to be den leader only, so it's good to prepare the parents for that.

 

Getting that out of the way, maybe it's a child care issue, transportation issue, or we just don't know what's going on in their lives.

 

My son was given a tremendous opportunity to join a band from a college at the age of 10, and he's getting free music lessons and support from the band members because they want him. It's on his den meeting night. We tried switching dens for him, but the other den is full and doesn't want him, so we're stuck. The COR is allowing us to do a kind of "lone scout" program within the pack because of this -- all it took was communication to make sure it was OK.

[Twocubdad]

What does the Bear den leader say? If the boy participated with the Bear den, massaged some of their activities into Wolf requirements, then completed the balance at home with his parents, it is possible he earned the badge. Not terribly likely, but possible.

 

But here's the bigger issue, and my apologies if you're not going to like hearing this: the problem is, this is the second year they've done this. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me, as Gomer says. Are you going to let this go another year? Next year you'll have some real age-appropriateness issues between Bears and Webelos.

 

Sooner or later this catches up. I had this exact problem at crossover last year. The den leader had winked and nodded a little brother along all the way through Arrow of Light. But the boy was only nine years and three or four months old. No way, no how can he join the troop. Of course we registered older brother as a Boy Scout and the pack made arrangements for the younger boy to drop back and work through Webelos II a second time. But the parents balked at having the boys in two separate units. (Yes, it's a pain in the butt, but all of us with two boys managed it somehow.) Ultimately, both boys dropped out.

 

There is a program in place we as leaders are obligated to follow. Are you going to follow the program or appease the forceful, pushy dad?

 

 

[ScoutNut]

It sounds like this man can't be bothered to take the time to attend Scout meetings with his younger son, or to even drop him off and pick him up. I guess 2 sets of meetings is simply to much trouble.

 

However, it is entirely possible that the boy worked on his Tiger and Wolf requirements with his father AT HOME, or on the side at the den meetings for his older brother. As others have said, BSA makes it very clear, the parent is Akela, and has the right/responsibility to approve son's work. If he states the boy completed stuff you have no option but to believe him, and award the patch to his son.

 

It is a shame that he has robbed his younger son of a Scout program with his classmates and friends for the last 2 years. He has missed out on quite a lot.

 

BUT - That changes next year. Next year, the Cub Scout program for Tiger, Wolf, and Bear, is changing. ALL (or most, there will be some "homework") requirements will be done IN THE DEN MEETING. It will be the DEN LEADER who approves the boys work. This is similar to how Webelos is done now. As a Bear, if this boy never attends meetings, and does not get his work approved by his BEAR den leader, he will not earn his Bear Rank Award. It might be interesting to see what happens when you lay that bomb on the father!

 

By the way, if he is spending so much time and energy on his sons in the den meetings, how are the rest of the boys doing? What kind of a den leader is he? Is he providing ALL of the boys in his den with a good program?

[CubPackComChr]

I have no problem giving the boy the wolf rank, even though the rest of the den and the rest of the parents have pointed out that he does not attend anything. I don't want to hurt the boys feelings. It is the dad (who is the bear leader) that I wish I knew how to deal with. I do not believe that the wolf did the requirements at bear meetings. I awarded the boy his tiger badge because our commisioner told me that we could not hold advancement from a boy and that hopefully this year would be better. Unfortunately it has not. I had not watched the webinar yet (scheduled to do so tomorrow) so if it is true and den leaders are to sign off for everything for now on then the dilema will be solved, if not, I don't know how to keep this man from bullying me into just giving awards to his son without him participating with his own age group. It is frustrating because he never comes to leader meetings, barely comes to pack nights so it is hard to talk to this man and tell him how it should be. Plus he is just one of those kind of men who is, well, very bullyish. He tells you whats going to happen in a manner that means that its his way or he will find a way to make it go his way. I just wish there were strick guidelines that we had on such things in the program, and that council could back up the decisions and say "yes the committee says that a boy has to show up and do the work or they don't get an award they didn't work for".

It would be best for the pack if we did not have this man for a den leader, but in times when it is hard to get volunteers you can't really tell someone you would rather they not be a leader, can you?

[Pack212Scouter]

Has the boy completed the requirements? Maybe, probably not...but at that level the parent can say that they completed whatever they want and sign it off. The best that you can do is require that he turn in the signed book to the proper Den Leader. Will this stop it, most likely not, and there really isn't anything more that you can do at that point. The parent and Scout are supposed to be trustworthy, but it will be his son that he is shorting.

[Lisabob]

Let me ask a different question. Why is this guy a den leader? If he doesn't attend leader meetings and I am willing to bet he's not trained, is he doing a good job as a den leader? If he bullies other leaders and isn't willing to stick to the program, is he doing any kind of a service to the other boys in the bear den?

 

How do the other families in the bear den feel about him bringing his younger boy along to everything the bear den does? Do they get to do the same with their other children who are not actually in the bear den?

 

How has the boy been earning progress toward rank all year, without this coming up until now? I am not sure - are you the current Wolf DL? (if not, what position do you hold in all of this?)

 

Do you award progress toward rank at pack meetings? If not, start doing so next year! And don't award to this boy, unless he shows up and meets the requirements. Then you won't be in a lurch at the end of the year because it will be clear he hasn't done a thing toward rank with his den all year long.

 

Since things have come this far, I would say you really aren't in a great position to say "no" at this point in time, even though you would like to. But somebody needs to have a "come to Jesus" meeting with this dad about what is going to happen next year. His older boy will be a Webelos scout. The Webelos program is set up to start transitioning the boys to boy scouts and so it works differently than the younger cub program. It would be an imposition on everyone to continue to allow younger brother to be the den mascot, as it were, next year. And it would cause the problem Twocubdad describes, when the older boys are ready to join a troop in 5th grade, and younger brother in 4th grade is not.

 

Talk to your committee chair, cubmaster, and advancement chair about this. Make sure you are all on the same page. Then go talk to the dad and lay out what you are, and aren't, willing to accept next year. If he balks, thank him for his service as den leader this year and let him know you'll have a different den leader in place for the Webelos program next year.

 

If your committee chair, cubmaster, and adv. chair won't back you on this, wash your hands of it. Tell them *you* will not award the boy rank next year if he doesn't show up to your den meetings, and *they* will need to deal with this parent and his boy in the future because *you* will not. And then make sure everybody knows what cool stuff your den will be doing, that this boy could do too, if he were to show up.

 

Bottom line: he's only bullying you because you are allowing him to do so. Stand up! (And yes, I've been on the receiving end of same - it doesn't get better on its own, as I'm sure you know.)

 

 

[nldscout]

Quit dancing around the issue, he doesn't attend meetings with you therefore he is not a member of your den, send his records back to the CM and let him do what he wants.

 

Then you move on with the rest of your den and parents and if asked , tell the Johnnie deceided not to be part of your den, and thats that.

 

If the CM wants to award him bogus pins because they won't stand up to this unethical leader , then so be it, not your problem.

[Crew21_Adv]

CubPackComChr,

 

 

Greetings!

 

Without reading thru the entire post, if the father wants to recognize accomplishments of his cub scout son, without this younger son attending a den meeting.

 

If the decision of the committee is not in favor for this younger cub. Possibly the younger brother could be enrolled as a Lone Scout with the district/council, and dis-enrolled from the Pack.

 

Here are couple of disappointments I've witnessed over the years. One of the two did have an acceptable outcome.

 

Years ago, I have seen a Pack take a liking to one Cub Scout. He was a good kid, though the family was lower income. I did not have anything against him, I just didn't understand the rational and charity that was poured out for this boy.

 

The 10 y/o Webelos age child was enrolled into the pack, issued a full blue uniform, Webelos Handbook, and earned Bobcat, every Webelos Activity Pin (some items I believe take 2 months), earned Webelos rank, the Arrow of Light, issued a Boy Scout uniform, handbook, and bridged over into the Troop. All within a month and one week (five weeks total). And the boy was never seen again at another Scout meeting. My Cub Scout Pack poured out approximately 500 dollars in 5 weeks for this young man, for him to quit on week 6. Good young man, but he did not contribute at all to the Pack; and was actually a financial burden on all the other Cubs and families that did pay dues and paid for his membership and recognitions.

 

On another occasion, I have seen a family that unfortunately had differences with two Cubmasters (and Pack Committees) in their neighborhood. This family was also very active in the district and council, however all parties could not get over their disagreements. (It should have been a relatively minor trivial issue, but all parties held grudges against the other). To resolve the issue, the district and council recommended the Lone Scout program to the family. This family was allowed to register their Cub Scout youth as a Lone Scout, with the parents acting as the sole Den Leader, and reporting to the DE. All the cost of the program was bore by that family. It actually worked out successfully, and the Cub Scout was able to bridge into a troop years later.

 

Although the family lived a mile away from two Packs, and frequently saw other Scouters in the neighborhood. They were able to remain active, keep an amiable relationship with the neighborhood packs, participate in district events, and accomplish Cub Scout program advancements on their own time.

 

Hopefully, your committee will make the best choice it can. If your committee decides not to accept the Scouts accomplishment without attending or going thru the proper advancement cycle, at least all is not lost and the family may seek another course of action to pursue the Cub Scout advancement program on their own time.

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

 

[NE-IV-88-Beaver]

Good question! What is your position in this? You are getting suggestions based on you being the Wolf den leader but your user name translates out to you possibly being the Cub Pack Committee Chairperson. That difference in position lays out different responsibilities. If you are the Committee Chair, you definitely need to be looking towards removing this father/den leader at the end of this program year. Aside from the problems being generated by what he has been doing with his younger son, how can he be an effective leader when he doesn't attend leader meetings, barely attends pack nights, and is considered, well, in your words, very bullyish?

 

Your pack doesn't need this type of den leader. Bully or not, do not let him become the Webelos Leader. If you allow this to continue, the discontent in your unit will magnify and your program growth will be stifled. I agree that you probably can not avoid giving the boy his Wolf advancement at this time but it does have it's consequences. Giving out unearned advancement, particularly when a large group feels that it is unearned, cheapens the whole process. As others have stated, the new program changes should help that concern in the future. If you are the committee chair, don't hesitate to discuss this in a committee meeting. That discussion will show others that you are aware of the problem and are taking steps, not asking this leader to become the Webelos Leader, to prevent the continuation of the problem. You may lose the father and the two sons but you can't afford the discontent that they are causing.

 

Good luck!

[Roadkill Patrol]

The problem with this dad approving his son't requirements are not going to stop even with the program changing. It may slow him up as a Bear, but when his son gets to Webelos, then the dad will be a Webelos leader also, and approve his requirements then as a leader even though his son will be in Webelos I and he will most likeley be Webelos II leader. Some people will never change doing something once they get away with it the first time.

 

Hopefully if the scouts reach the troop level, there is a strong process in place for signing off of advancements. I could see the dad being a leader and causing a problem. He would probably bully the SPL to sign off his kids advancements and put through bogus merit badge work.

 

I know on our troop level, we have a rule that no leader sign off on their own son. So as an ASM, I handle the Scoutmaster Conference for the Scoutmasters son and grandson. We have found this to be the best method so the boys get a more well-rounded program.