Who has the authority ? CM or CC ??

[WestCoastScouter]

Our pack currently has two Bear Dens... one den has 8 boys, and the other has 9 boys.

 

Now, the Den that has nine boys has had a new scout being recruited by of its members... and these two boys want to be with each other.

 

The "recruiter" boy's father, is a former scout & has volunteered to start/lead a THIRD Bear den. (his son, the new recruit,and two boys from the den of 9, and one boy from the den of 8 = 5 boys for the newly formed Den).

 

The Den Leader that has nine boys, will potentially have three boys move to the new den (thus leaving him at 6 boys)... is he is not at all supportive with this happening. He wants the new recruit to just come into his den, thus putting him at 10 boys... and stay at two dens - not three.

 

The issue is this: The Den Leader of the nine boys, the one that opposes the forming of a new Bear Den... is also the Cub Master. He has stated that as Cub Master, that he has the authority to choose who gets to be a den leader, how many dens, and which den the boys will be in.

 

The Committee Chair disagrees, and is of the position that it is the CC and COR who approve leaders (including DL's) and thus the CC will decide how many dens will exist, and is of the opinion that a new den is necessary, and will give room for more new recruits to come in...

 

So who has the authority here ?? the CM or the CC ??

[evmori]

Here are the CM's responsibilities.

 

Responsibilities: The Cubmaster's responsibilities are to

 

* Conduct a pack program according to the policies of the BSA.

* Complete Cubmaster Fast Start Training and position-specific Basic Leader Training. Attend monthly roundtables.

* Plan and help carry out the Cub Scout program in the pack. This includes leading the monthly pack meeting, with the help of other leaders.

* Help the pack committee with a year-round recruitment plan for recruiting boys into Tiger Cubs, Cub Scouting, and Webelos Scouting.

* Know about and use the appropriate and available literature, including Boys' Life and Scouting magazines, Cub Scout Program Helps, and the Webelos Leader Guide.

* See that the pack program, leaders, and Cub Scouts positively reflect the interests and objectives of the chartered organization and the BSA.

* Work with the pack committee on (1) program ideas, (2) selecting and recruiting adult leaders, and (3) establishing a budget plan.

* Guide and support den leaders. See that they receive the required training for their positions.

* Help organize Webelos dens and encourage graduation into a Boy Scout troop.

* Help establish and maintain good relationships with Boy Scout troops.

* Maintain good relationships with parents and guardians. Seek their support and include them in activities. Involve male relatives such as uncles and grandfathers so that Cub Scouts will have additional male role models.

* See that Tiger Cubs, Cub Scouts, and Webelos Scouts receive a quality, year-round program filled with fun and activities that qualify the dens and pack for the National Summertime Pack Award.

* Guide Cub Scouts in goodwill and conservation projects.

* See that the responsibilities specified for the assistant Cubmaster are carried out.

* Help the pack committee chair conduct the annual pack program planning conference and the monthly pack leaders' meetings.

* Work as a team with the pack committee chair to cultivate, educate, and motivate all pack leaders and parents or guardians in Cub Scouting.

* Take part in the charter review meeting and annual charter presentation ceremony.

* Request den chiefs for all dens and, after selection, see that they are trained. Recognize the den chiefs at pack meetings.

* Conduct an impressive graduation ceremony for Tiger Cubs.

* Meet with the unit commissioner, Webelos den leader, and Scoutmaster to establish plans for the Webelos Scouts' transition to Boy Scouting.

* Help plan and conduct impressive Webelos graduation ceremonies involving parents and guardians, the Scoutmaster, the Webelos den chief, the Webelos den leader, and the troop junior leaders.

* Conduct impressive Arrow of Light Award ceremonies.

* Encourage high advancement standards for all Cub Scouts.

* Help bring families together at joint activities for Webelos dens (or packs) and Boy Scout troops.

* Support the policies of the BSA.

 

Here are the CC's responsibilities.

 

Responsibilities: The pack committee chair's job is to

 

* Maintain a close relationship with the chartered organization representative, keeping this key person informed of the needs of the pack that must be brought to the attention of the organization or the district.

* Report to the chartered organization to cultivate harmonious relations.

* Confer with the Cubmaster on policy matters relating to Cub Scouting and the chartered organization.

* Supervise pack committee operation by

1. Calling and presiding at pack leaders' meetings.

2. Assigning duties to committee members.

3. Planning for pack charter review, roundup, and reregistration.

4. Approving bills before payment by the pack treasurer.

* Conduct the annual pack program planning conference and pack leaders' meetings.

* Complete pack committee Fast Start Training and Basic Leader Training for the position.

* Ask the committee to assist with recommendations for Cubmaster, assistant Cubmasters, Tiger Cub den leaders, Cub Scout den leaders, and Webelos den leaders, as needed.

* Recognize the need for more dens, and see that new dens are formed as needed.

* Work with the chartered organization representative to provide adequate and safe facilities for pack meetings.

* Cooperate with the Cubmaster on council-approved money-earning projects so the pack can earn money for materials and equipment.

* Manage finances through adequate financial records.

* Maintain adequate pack records and take care of pack property.

* If the Cubmaster is unable to serve, assume active direction of the pack until a successor is recruited and registered.

* Appoint a committee member or other registered adult to be responsible for Youth Protection training.

* Provide a training program for adult family members.

* Develop and maintain strong pack-troop relationships, sharing with the troop committee the need for graduations into the troop.

* Work closely with the unit commissioner and other pack and troop leaders in bringing about a smooth transition of Webelos Scouts into the troop.

* Help bring families together at joint activities for Webelos dens (or packs) and Boy Scout troops.

* Support the policies of the BSA.

 

Seems to me it is the CC's call.

[mds3d]

There are so many things wrong here.

 

First, a good thing. Someone is really volunteering to be a den leader! In my experience this is one of the hardest positions to get people to step up to doing. The idea of turning this person down makes me shudder.

 

Now for the first wrong thing. The Cubmaster is a Den Leader??? This is short and simple, dual registration. This is not a law of exclusion issue. The regs say you cant (right there on the registration form) so you cant. This needs to be corrected immediately. If this hadn't been the case, this situation might not have happened. The CC (absolutely his job) needs to tell your CM/DL that he has to pick one position and allow the other to be filled by someone else. In the worst case scenario, the CM chooses to stay CM, the new dad takes his old den, and the dens stay together (although too large).

 

Secondly. These dens are already on the upper limit of being too big. When bear (and then Webelos) dens get to large they dont function well. The dens should split up. It also sounds like there is already a great idea of how to divide them up. Also, like evmori showed, it is absolutely the right and responsibility of the Committee Chair if this is to happen or not (particularly since he is the only uninvolved party)

[John-in-KC]

What is this about AUTHORITY?

 

Leadership in a Cub Pack should be collegial and collaborative. It's not about us. It's about those kids in the blue pants and shirts.

 

Yes, the CC and the Committee are accountable to the Chartered Partner for seeking out Pack leadership and having a fully and properly staffed suite of leaders. That said, it's really everybody's job to help out with identifying and recruiting leaders. It's just the focal point is the CC.

 

Absolutely agree with mds3d that CM should allow someone else to be the Bear DL. He's enough to do, supporting his DLs and being the ringmaster of the monthly Pack meeting.

[Eamonn]

What he just said!

Ea.

[WestCoastScouter]

To answer some of the Q's posed by others... to help round out the issue so to speak.

 

(1) Like many packs we dont have parents rushing to volunteer, hence like many packs our CM is registered as the CM, but also does the job of DL. I've read many times here that you can register only for one position, but can serve in other positions as well. Right ?

 

(2) The CC agrees that we are maxed out in the Bear dens, and need "space to take new boys" that will come in... and also you never turn down a volunteer.

 

(3) As to CC vs. the CM... They are congenial with each other, but we are at the point where they respectfully disagree, and we just need to know who gets the final say on this one...

 

I hope that helps explain it a bit more...

[oldisnewagain1]

This could be a tricky problem requiring some delegate diplomacy.

 

I am afraid if these two indiviguals (CC&CM) draw lines in the sand you are going to end up with one Bear Den, another new Pack with one Bear Den, and several parents who pull their kids from Scouts because of the way the leaders are acting.

 

 

[Acid Test]

Cub Master should hand over his den leadership responsibilities to the father of the new scout. See if there is somebody else in this den of now 10 scouts who wants to move to the den of 8. If not, 8 and 10 is still a good balance and a reasonable number.

 

[John-in-KC]

WestCoastScouter...

 

Cubmasters, Scoutmasters, Commissioners: If you read the BSA literature, all three of these come with the caution that this is a significant Scouting position, and the Scouter should not be registered elsewhere in this unit. For Commish, they should not be registered as program side people elsewhere in Scouting.

 

So no, Mr CM should not be CM and DL. The one exception would be if the DL is not available, and there's no assistant. Then the CM should step in temporarily. That's the same as the CC assuming the duties of CM if he/she is not available.

[Beavah]

Yah, fact of da matter is that it isn't uncommon to see a Cubmaster double as a den leader. Perhaps not da preferred thing in Ideal Council, but I've never had a chance to visit. Often da CM makes a better DL than drafting a reluctant parent, because he/she is invested in the program.

 

WestCoast, folks just need to grow up a bit and act like adults, eh? Yeh sit together and work it out. Among the Bear DLs, preferably. With da rest of the pack committee if need be.

 

But to answer your question specifically, "neither." Neither the Cubmaster nor da CC have "authority" in this matter. It's somethin' that in the BSA is sorted out by the volunteers workin' together and sortin' things out as a group, in committee. Yah, yah, da COR and IH have "ultimate" authority to act unilaterally (not the CC), but no COR or IH with a brain bigger than a walnut is goin' to get involved in that kind of micromanagement.

 

Now if yeh can't get people to behave themselves or you're just lookin' for a quick decision, there is a good workin' rule of thumb. The guy that is doing the most work for the pack gets his choice. He's the fellow who knows the folks the best and is more likely to follow things through to make 'em work.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Pack212Scouter]

Beavah has the best answer.

 

In a nutshell, the way that it is supposed to be run is the Committee Chair is responsible for establishing Dens and leaders. In our Pack however, the CC usually winds up keeping up with the CO and paperwork side of things while the Cubmaster runs the program side of things, with the CC's support. Really in fact it is the CO's (or at least the COR) ultimate call since it is their unit

 

As for the Dens, I see a few things that pop out at me. First of all it looks like the Dens have only one Leader? Each Den should have two leaders if at all possible, especially if they are this size. In our Pack, we have found that dens of 8-10 with 2-3 leaders actually function better than smaller or larger Dens. With sports, etc. interfering with meetings, a Den of 8-10 often winds up functioning as a Den of 6-7; which is often the smallest that you want. If you have a Den of 6, you wind up having meetings with 3-4 boys and that doesn't work well for us, as you tend to lose the Den dynamic.

 

It sound like you may need a third Den for expansion, but I'd put the boy in one of the existing Dens with the caviat that he may move when you see what next year's lineup looks like.

[JoeBob]

If the CC's responsibilities include:

 

"* Recognize the need for more dens, and see that new dens are formed as needed."

 

how can the CM justify his claim to that decision?

[Scoutfish]

"* Recognize the need for more dens, and see that new dens are formed as needed."

 

Yeah, good call!

 

So maybe as a position, neither CM or CC has more authority, but in the terms of general duties, It sounds like the CC has the right, ability, and the authority to create new dens.

 

Now, if the CC was to perform his/her duty as outlined by BSA, then it sounds like a new den could/ CAN BE be created and the CM has the responsibility to see that it gets a qualified leader .

 

The CM has an obligation as a "experienced and knows better" leader to step back and look at himself just a bit.

 

It sounds like he's just a bit too personally involved to the point it's become detrimental to how he conducts things.

[Scoutfish]

Now having said that...wouldn't it be great if every pack had this problem:

 

Too many volunteers?

 

Too many people wanting to help out and be in a position of taking some burden?

 

Right now, I am in this same situation..sorta: I am an ADL of a bear den that just crossed to Webelos .

 

We have 22 boys regularly and occasionally 24 or 25. We split up into at least 2 and sometimes 3 groups just to get anything done.

 

I mentioned to the DL that I would like to step up next year as a DL for Webelos also.

 

I have taken Webelos specific training, BALOO, YP, Leader Essentials. Weather, etc.... and the whole list of standard training too.

 

The DL is upset and feels betrayed somewhat. At the same time, he admits that the den does need to split, but wants it to stay as one because it's been that way since Tigers ( although it was only a handfull back then.)

 

The difference is that the CC, COR and CM all agree that there should be at least 2 if not 3 Webelos dens. Most of the leadership feels this way.

 

Again, the problem is : Too many volunteers?

 

Too many people wanting to help out?

 

Scary huh?

[WestCoastScouter]

UPDATE: Our CM/DL has agreed to only be a CM. He still does not want the boys to split into a third den. Wants to keep them at 9 & 10. vs. 6,7 & 6.

 

The CM however has conceded that the CC and COR will decide on how many dens and who will be DL's. He's not happy about it, but realizes its not his final call.

 

I think we'll do a recruitment before the end of the year to see if we can get a few more boys for each den, and that will make them all "full" again and happy !

 

An old wise UC once told me: "Cubscouting is great until you add adults."(This message has been edited by westcoastscouter)