Need advice on appropriate expenses

[cubmom]

As treasurer of our pack (and now, troop) it seems to be falling to me to provide guidelines on who should spend $, how much $ and for what. We overspent out budget last year, mostly in the categories of 1)food, and 2)den supplies/projects. Here's what happens: Tiger leader spends $25 on "snacks"...turns in receipts. Wolf leader leader turns in receipts for $25 for materials for a project, some leaders want to spend $ for every den meeting. Is this typcial? I've only been doing this a couple of years, and we've gone from being extremly frugal, to anything goes. How do other packs handle this? We have a leader that wants to take his boys to a $4/head event. Are these types of expenditures typcial? As hard as it is to collect dues, and get the kids and parents to participate in fundraisers, it amazes me how easily they can spend money. We had an enormously successful popcorn sale last year, so that is another reason we got a bit loose with the money I think. I know that I'm naturally tight-fisted, so I want to make sure we have fair rules in place. I would appreciate your opinions.

[james_clegg]

I would recommend a budget of some kind, I would base it on the number of boys in the pack. so if the tiger den has 30 boys and the wolf 3 then get the right budget.

I would also remind the den leaders that most of the requirements do not cost money to do.

One of the things we would like to teach the boys is how to have fun without $

Don't forget to budget in Day camp.

 

 

I would also give the leaders at least a quarterly summery of what they have spent.

[Bob White]

In my cubmaster days The pack funds gave each Den Leader $25 at teh beginning of the program year in September to by craft supplies. In addition every cub paid den dues to the den leader of $1 each week. Families in the den donated snacks and they rotated the duties around the den, family by family.

 

We had 14 dens and it worked fine in every den.

 

Bob White

[Rooster7]

First, it's not really the treasurer's job to decide who gets what. The CC and/or the pack/troop committee should decide prior to the new year what their budget will be, and how much will be allocated for various activities. The treasurer's job is to monitor and follow the established budget, and to ensure the proper procedures are followed. That is to say, if each den is allocated $50 at the beginning of the year, you should not allow more than $50 to be withdrawn unless the CC and/or the committee has approved the expenditure. Some packs/troops establish a miscellaneous fund and allow the CM/SM and/or CC to make small withdraws without pre-approval. Nevertheless, as to how much each den should be allowed to spend, that should be decided at the beginning of the year with consideration to the overall budget and the anticipated revenues (dues, fund raisers, etc.). Once each den's fund is established, as treasurer, you should ensure that they do not withdraw more than what's been already approved. A den leader can ask parents to pay fees for special events (such as the $4 per head activity mentioned in your post). If a parent feels the event is not worth the money, he/she can simply opted not to have their child attend.

[Twocubdad]

Do you have these expenses budgeted? If not, they need to be. In our Pack we budget $20 per boy per year for Den expenses. In a Den with eight boys, that's $160 per year the Den Leader can spend as they see fit.

 

Rarely, however, do the Dens spend all their money. Most expenses are less than $10 and the Den Leaders often pay it and never turn in the receipts. On the other hand, we had one Den that needed additional money for a service project at our Chartered Organization. They presented the request to the Pack committee and we approved it.

 

Personally,I question spending Pack money on snacks. Most of our Dens are getting away from snacks, mainly because they meet in the evenings, just after dinner. If you're going to have snacks, why not ask the parents to take turns providing them. Money aside, the Den Leader doesn't need the added hassle of buying and dealing with snacks every week.

[cubmom]

James - we do have a budget - I spend a considerable amount of time on it each year. But we are a fairly new pack (4 years) and quite small, and still have many problems with parental involvment, communication, and organization. Everyone gets a copy of the budget, and I inform everyone periodically of how we are doing, but no one really pays attention I don't think. Bob - $25 a year for crafts for each den would probably have our leaders balking. I agree that most activities should be free or low-cost, but it seems like the leaders just do what they want, and don't worry about the cost. How do we get from here to there? I know there is a program helps book - to be honest I haven't looked at it much since I don't plan the activities. Are most of the ideas in there "dollar-friendly"?

[Rooster7]

Also, remember that most packs have numerous expenditures that need to be considered when establishing a budget: re-charting, blue & gold banquet, pinewood derby, awards (boys and leaders), pack meeting expenses (i.e., ceremonies, costumes, props, etc.), etc. So, don't be too generous with the den funds until you've considered the expenditures you will encounter for the entire year. Likewise, try to remember all sources of revenues before establishing a budget.

[Rooster7]

Everyone gets a copy of the budget, and I inform everyone periodically of how we are doing, but no one really pays attention I don't think.

 

Get the budget approved by committee at the beginning of the year and establish some rules in the same meeting (i.e., reimbursement for expenditures that exceed established funds will not be distributed). Those who choose to ignore the rules will assume the risk. They may not be reimbursed if the committee feels the expenditure was unwarranted or excessive.

 

[sctmom]

Our pack paid for badges and awards from the pack budget. That was funded by the popcorn sales. They also bought the necessary books for the leaders. The pack bought the main course and paid for the entertainment at the Blue & Gold. The side dishes were furnished by the families of each den.

 

Each den collected dues to cover craft supplies and snacks. Or you can rotate who brings snacks. Or just not have snacks (yes, the children will survive).

 

Special trips by a den are covered by the parents. If a parents said they didn't have the money, then the pack would pay for it.

 

[cubmom]

Rooster7 - all those costs you mentioned were included in the budget - absolutely. This problem is more with UNBUDGETED expenditures that occur within the dens, without approval. And the budget is approved each year (in reality, this is only the 2nd year we have had a budget) and I guess we are in the process of approving one for this year. We included a small amount last year, for the whole pack, for den activity/supplies. Obviously we overspent that by a great deal. So I like the idea of the $/den or $/boy limit. I will suggest that. Also I agree on the snacks - I don't know where the idea came from to start purchasing snacks for every meeting...I hope we can squash that. I just don't want people getting pissed off at me (and it always falls to me) when I tell them that they have overspent their limit.

[Rooster7]

I just don't want people getting pissed off at me (and it always falls to me) when I tell them that they have overspent their limit.

 

There's the rub. I think, as "protector" of the budget, you will always encounter people who feel they're entitled and will show resentment. Bottom line, it's your job to stop the overspending (per the approved budget). No doubt, you have one of the more difficult jobs. If you give the disclaimer at the beginning of the year (i.e., don't expect to get reimbursed for unapproved expenditures), most reasonable adults will work with you and not against you. If someone cops an attitude, it's their problem, not yours. How thick is your skin? Good luck.

(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[Twocubdad]

I don't necessarily agree that treasurer should bear the burden of policing the budget. The committee chairman and, to a lesser degree, Cubmaster needs to do the heavy lifting. As treasurer, I think you can jump up and down at committee meetings as to budget and procedure, but when it comes to butting heads with an individual Den Leader, that's not your job. As a CC myself, I certainly wouldn't ask my treasurer to do it.

 

Here's a suggestion. Develop a check request/reimbursement form and require that it be signed by you, and the CC and/or CM before a check is written. Set up a procedure where by you receive the requests first and then pass them along to the CC. If a expense puts a den over budget, you make a note to that effect at the bottom of the form. If nothing else, that puts the onus on the CC to deal with the budget and the Den Leader.

 

 

[eisely]

A reimbursement request form is one procedural aid, but not a solution by itself. For a small pack it seems to me to be another piece of paper. There is no way you can avoid the grief when you refuse reimbursement without committee approval. But referring to the committee is the right answer, particularly if a budget has already been established.

 

In my experience dens were always one their own for funding their own activities. The exception was when the pack bought some leather working tools that could be passed around, but then these are not a consumable item. Whether or not you choose to have the pack under write a portion of the den expenses is a committee decision, but then it must be policed and adhered to. That is an unavoidable responsibility for the treasurer.

[yaworski]

"Each den collected dues to cover craft supplies and snacks. Or you can rotate who brings snacks. Or just not have snacks (yes, the children will survive). "

 

My son's den leader got rid of snacks at the den meetings because it chewed (no pun intended) up too much time. You're right, the boys survived.

 

For some reason people always want to stuff food into kids' mouths and it is usually cookies or cakes. After we do that, we then complain about all of the fat kids (two years ago, I ran across a second year Webelos who weighed 300 lbs).

 

[Eagle74]

I was pack treasurer for about 6 years. Your resposibility should not be to determine how money is spent - beyond your informed input as "handler" of the funds. Rather your primary responsibility is keeping accurate and complete records of all funds coming into and going out of the pack treasury. You do have a fiduciary duty and I would recommend that your books be "audited" annually by another individual. I was able to use a friend who is an accountant and he donated his time. Policies and procedures for expenditure of funds from the treasury should lay on the shoulders of the Pack committee.

 

As for expenses, our pack used the pack treasury only for pack related expenses - badges, pins, blue & gold, pinewood derby, raingutter regatta, etc. Most years, these expenses were covered by the proceeds of popcorn sales. All popcorn proceeds went to the pack and the scout bucks earned were used to reward the top 5 sellers. Annual member renewal was paid by the parent each year. One goal each year was to budget to enter the following year with enough cash reserve to be able to run for about one additional year without any income except member renewal fees. Takes a couple of years to get to that point and then takes a disciplined group to keep it that way.

 

Dens were responsible for their own expenses including supplies, activity fees for den activities, snacks, etc. Our den had den dues of $5 per month. This more than covered the den's expenses and allowed us to buy Boy Scout Handbooks for each boy going on to Boy Scouts and have a "bridging party" with the left over funds.

 

Hope this info is of some help. I understand your dilema, but think the committee needs to take a more prominent role in determining what is acceptable as a pack expenditure.