Would a Cub Scout Klondike qualify as a day camp?

[Sebastian a lady]

In the end, it really doesn't matter if there is a consensus here about a CS event countin as a day camp or not. What matters is if the council considers it such. I have been in councils where single day events were run as day camps and were counted toward completion of the Outdoor Activity Award. Not, in my mind at least, in an attempt to give the kids more bling, but to recognize that those scouts had in fact participated in outdoor events and activities.

 

In the council we are currently in, there was only a 1 day day camp offered last year.

[Eagle92]

Base,

Again I am new to the CS side of things, but the literature I received at NCS states a daycamp is anything from 1 to 5 days. I won't be able to post the citation tonite, got a pack meeting, But will tomorrow nite. But there is conflicting info out there from national.

 

I think part of the challenge is that for the longest time CS did not do much outdoor

activities. It was usally limited to CSDC ( which I do not remember being offered while a CS in the early 1980s) parent and son campout over a weekend, and as Webelos with a troop. I beleive res camp came about in the 1990s, but don't quote me on that ( although I'm told it was piloted in my current council and may be able to find out more).

 

And every council is different. I know that my old council has mad megaevents for cubs sicne the early 1990s, 10-12K folks, but my current council just had their first megaevent for CS this past weekend, and is seemed at times as if including the CS was an afterthought. Thankfully everyone had a great time.

 

But yes day camps vary form council to council and event district to district. In my current council, out of 9 districts, only 2 have day long, 5 day camps. The others are either 3 days, evenings only, or both. In fact most of the districts don't call it "day camp" but rather "twilight camp"

(This message has been edited by eagle92)

[Basementdweller]

Sebastian, just curious what Council would that be.

 

 

[Sebastian a lady]

Base,

 

The policy of using day camp as either the capstone requirement or opening requirement is something that I have seen in Transatlantic, Aloha and Far East Councils. In all three of these councils, there are varied school schedules between state and private (and DOD) schools so it is quite possible to have a pack in one district crossed over while another is still in school.

 

The one day daycamp I mentioned was Japan district FEC for 2009.

 

Aloha used one day events such as Cub-O-Ree and Schofield Days for this requirement with the explanation that they were organized as district day camps even though they were not called that.

 

And yes, I have had this info in writing from folks at the district and council level. Does this prove that my council is right and another council is wrong? Not really. But I'm really not just out there cruising the scout shop for more stuff for the scouts to wear.

 

The outdoor activity award is something that should be encouraging the scout, den and pack to participate in more outdoor activities than they might otherwise. For some that is going to mean making a bigger effort to drive to the other side of the district for a day camp. For others it might mean actually doing a scouts' own service during a pack overnighter or organizing a service project.

[Basementdweller]

Sebastian

 

the Councils that support the scouts abroad. Makes sense now. I understand the need for the differences.

 

With that said, you will find that questions of this nature in this forum are usually posted by parents looking for a short cut. As pointed out to Mrssand it is rare that a tiger earns the Outdoor activity award because in most instances Tigers do not attend traditional Day Camps as tigers, but as wolves.

[Eagle92]

have to agree with Base, most tigers don't go to a traditional CSDC b/c either A) they are not in CS yet as round up is in the fall or B) parents cannot attend or do not want to attedn camp for the ntire week.

 

However there are a few scouting addicts like myself who went witht here TC son to CSDC the entire week. Got into trouble too, they made me program director for this year

[Eagle92]

Ok I found the reference to CSDC being able to be only one day. From Cub Scouting 2010 National Standards for Local Council Precamp Operational Accreditation of Cub scout/Webelos Scout Day Camp

 

Day camp is an organized 1-to-5-day program for Tiger Cubs

(and their adult partner), Cub Scouts, and Webelos Scouts under

trained leadership at an approved site, during daylight or early

evening hours but not overnight. Day camp youth participants

are limited to registered Tiger Cubs (and their adult partners),

Cub Scouts, and Webelos Scouts. page 1, second paragraph.

 

I personally would discuss this with the CM, as each council will determine what is or is not a cub scout day camp. My council has determined that a one day al day long actity counts, a 3 day, 2 hours each day activity counts, and of course the traditional 5 day all day counts.

[NE-IV-88-Beaver]

Basementdweller, I'm with you all the way. Why not short cut all of the requirements and go ahead and give the Tigers their Arrow of Light? We know that they'll eventually complete all of the requirements, possibly, and that would give them more time to enjoy the "bling".

 

This topic was broached to me by my daughter as some in their den were complaining that only two boys (who actually attended camp) had received the award. After researching the topic, I sent her the following reply:

 

Daughter -

 

In my opinion, awarding the Cub Scout Outdoor Activity Award for attending the XXXXX XXX Klondike Derby is not justified. It would represent a watering down of the intended purpose of the award. Having attended this event for many years as a Boy Scout leader, I fail to see how it could meet the requirements as a day camp. Anyone who feels that it does is just reaching for an excuse to get around the requirements and hand out an award just for the sake of doing so.

 

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/CubScouts/resources/CSOutdoorActivityAward.aspx

 

Cub Scout Outdoor Activity Award

 

Tiger Cubs, Wolf and Bear Cub Scouts, and Webelos Scouts have the opportunity to earn the Cub Scout Outdoor Activity Award. Boys may earn the award in each of the program years as long as the requirements are completed each year. The first time the award is earned, the boy will receive the pocket flap award, which is to be worn on the right pocket flap of the uniform shirt. Each successive time the award is earned, a wolf track pin may be added to the flap. Leaders should encourage boys t o build on skills and experiences from previous years when working on the award for a successive year.

Requirements

All Ranks

 

Attend Cub Scout day camp or Cub Scout/Webelos Scout resident camp.

 

 

 

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/CubScouts/resources/CubScoutingHighlights/05.aspx

 

Outdoor Program Highlights

 

Camping Opportunities for...

Tiger Cubs Cub Scouts Webelos Scouts

Parents Families

 

Cub Scoutings' camping and outdoor activities fulfill Tiger Cubs, Cub Scouts, and Webelos Scouts dreams of fun, excitement, and adventure. They provide a natural setting for quality time with family and friends. Modern council camps, with qualified leadership, provide an ideal setting for these activities.

 

Check with your local council service center for information on the type of Cub Scouting outdoor opportunities offered in your area.

Cub Scout Day Camp

 

 

 

"The camp that comes to the boy," day camp is an accredited, organized, one- to five-day program for Tiger Cubs, Cub Scouts, and Webelos Scouts under trained leadership at an approved site, and is usually held during daylight or early evening hours, but not overnight. Den members are supervised by den and pack leaders.

 

Resident Camping

 

Resident camping is an organized, accredited overnight camping program covering at least two nights and conducted under trained leadership in an established Scout camp operated by the council. Cub Scouts, Webelos Scouts, and parents participate with den and pack leaders in a theme-related outdoor program.

 

 

Resident Camping Normally Includes These Outdoor Program Areas

 

* Showmanship

* Craftsmanship

 

* Fitness

* Nature

* Sportsmanship

 

* Waterfront

* Campcraft

 

 

 

If you will notice, in both the day camp and resident camping definitions, it calls for an accredited, organized program. The accreditation for both of these activities means that the leaders have attended National Camp School and have been certified to run this type of activity and that the venues have been inspected and meet National standards. This by itself tends to elevate the type of activity that this award was intended for.

 

If these guidelines are not going to be followed, then it could be argued that any district sponsored event could qualify and be counted as "day camp". I don't really believe that this was the intent by the originator of the award.

 

We both know that many of the responders on the Scouter.com Forums tend to be overly liberal in their interpretation of the rules so I would tend to take their including a Klondike Derby as a "day camp" with a grain of salt.

 

If there is a great deal of push from the parents seeking this award for their sons, I would not have it decided on a pack basis. Before deciding in that case, I would check with either the district advancement or camping chair for an interpretation as to it qualifying or not. If you don't, you'll be establishing a precedent for the future awarding of the Outdoor Activity Award for any type of like activities.

 

Of course, the above just represents my opinion but it is based on over thirty years in the program, both as a unit leader and a district leader.

 

Dad

[Eagle92]

NE,

Again I am new to this but what if an one day or weekend event did, repeat DID, meet the national standards, i.e. had certified people running the event, did the precamp inspection 60 days out, had things worked out with a local doctor and hospital, and all the other PITA stuff I am doing for my daycamp now, would you approve?

 

I know the 2 day overniter that my council just completed followed national standards to the letter, and maybe a little over it. We not only had contact with the local hospital and physician, but we had an emergency hospital,i.e. disaster relief set up and staffed, several pre camp inspections, food certified by dieticians, etc etc.

 

I guess what I am trying to say is that every council does something different.

[NE-IV-88-Beaver]

Eagle92,

 

In your scenario, I don't have a problem at all with that being considered for the award. It sounds like all of the personnel and procedures were in place to qualify.

 

I think that it is incumbent on the unit to get a ruling from their district or council as to whether or not an event would meet the requirements for the Outdoor Activity Award,rather than have each pack decide on their own or to ask for a ruling from the posters on Scouting.com Forums.

 

Referring back to one of your earlier posts, there is nothing wrong with the OP's Tigers in question here waiting until they meet the requirements as Wolves.

[Basementdweller]

Thx NE, I like your letter an may cut and paste it in the future

 

I have this discussion with tiger parents all to often. If they earn absolutely as a tiger what are they going to do for the next 3 or 4?

 

I understand Pack associated with deployed soldiers and their needs. Single day events are musts.

 

I respectfully disagree with Eagle92 saying a single day event should or can qualify. Again in perfect BSA methodology they leave too much room for interpretation. Humans are lazy by nature and this give Parents and underachieving Cub leaders the perfect out.

 

Again I call to attention the Bear or Webelo Scout who has a shirt and Brag vest full of patches that they have no clue how they earned.(This message has been edited by Basementdweller)

[Eagle92]

Base,

Understand completely, and was in your shoes until I got on CSDC staff last year and heard about what some districts call day camp. Then going to NCS to be a PD at CSDC this year was a real eye opening experience.

 

In reference to my council's event this past weekend, the national standards were used and several months of planning went into it. I hate to say it, but I think more planning and resources went into it than CSDC. I know that my TCs that went spent more time there than they would at some of the other district's CSDCs, being htere for a total of 12 hours compared to a total of 6-10 hours at one of the day camps.(This message has been edited by Eagle92)