Cub Scout Camping - Parentless??

[DYB-Mike]

My Council has agreed with my thoughts (still waiting for National's response) . . . The Scout (a Wolf) cannot go parentless because of "Family Camping" part of the GTSS (as posted by Scoutfish), I guess taking the view that a parent must actually be there to be responsible for the supervision of their a child [but, this should be "clearer," so the other family member is not a baby brother!].

 

Now Im completely confused.

 

My understanding of how the situation worked was the same as what ScoutNut and NE-IV-88-Beaver wrote.

 

I went to the GTSS and found, a few sections down from Family Camping, the section on Pack Overnighters, which contains the statement n most cases, each youth member will be under the supervision of a parent or guardian. In all cases, each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult. This seems to fit with what ScoutNut and NE-IV-88-Beaver wrote.

 

So is a Pack Overnighter not the same as Family Camping, even though the Pack will be camping overnight? I know this may sound silly but the more I read the Family Camping section the more it didnt even sound like a pack event.

 

Boys want to camp that is the prime outing of Scouting. Why are there so many roadblocks to this? I know folks are going to respond liability, but it just seems so much more complicated than it needs to be. Two-deep leadership, adequate ratio of leaders to boys, proper sleeping arrangements (scouts only sleep with parents or other scouts), and written parental approval for the event should be all thats required.

 

Dont get me started on the Wolf and Bear den camping prohibition!

 

YIS

Mike

 

[Basementdweller]

Reaper, I think your short changing this boys scouting experience. Far as Council and national goes they could care a hill of beans about your scout. As noted the Rules are vague enough to be interpreted many different ways.

 

If another adult is going to be responsible for him then all is good.

 

[Snow_White]

"Sharing tents is okay as long as each scout in the tent also has his adult in the tent."

 

Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're saying here - isn't this against YP rules?

 

[Scoutfish]

 

 

I think what Phibbles meant was this:

As long as each scout has their parent in the tent, then sharing is okay.

 

Meaning if I had a ten man tent and just my son ands myself went camping ( this is not hypothetical) and another scout and his dad didn't have a tent, I could share with them.

 

YP would not be violated as long as BOTH scout's dads were in the tent.

 

The only harm would be the odd stares and looks both the dads would get!

[Snow_White]

G2SS states (in bold) "When camping, no youth is permitted to sleep in the tent of an adult other than his own parent or guardian."

 

I have always understood this to mean that the situation you describe is prohibited, even if his own parent is also in the tent?

[bbender]

That's the way I understand it as well in tent camping . . . in part because of the privacy issue component for changing clothes and whatnot, though (like with cabin camping and dormitory style sleeping arrangements like Aircraft Carriers) one can change in a restroom or other facility and/or create divisions within a room.

 

And I suppose one could do the same with some of the big honkin' tents that some folks end up dragging out to camp one or two times . . . and perhaps there are tents that are big enough to accommodate both the "odd stares and looks" plus the two adults and scouts, and would therefore comply with the G2SS rules about "Single-room or dormitory-type accommodations for Scouting units: Adults and youth of the same gender may occupy dormitory or single-room accommodations, provided there is a minimum of two adults and four youth".

 

Now, of course, under that rule, it would have to be an even bigger honkin' tent to have those numbers (but I've seen some bigguns), plus the only adults who could share would have to have, between them, at least 4 Scout offspring!

 

Bottom line: don't buy that great big tent, or, if you do, let your scouts sleep in it by themselves while you bivouac under the stars nearby!

[Scoutfish]

Ozark Trail offers a 16 X 10 , 3-room tent with an attached "canopy like" thing over the entrance as well as two smaller hatch style doors at each end.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Ozark-Trail-3-Room-XL-Vacation-Lodge/10996294

 

Technically,the center room is considered a great room, while the two end rooms are considered sleeping rooms.

 

Anyways, I never said I'd share that tent, but just explaining Phibbles comments as I THINK they were meant.

 

Truth be told, I'd rather my son sleep in his own tent and I sleep inmy own. I sure don't need to hear another adults snoring, flatulence or worse at night!

 

(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

[Scoutfish]

"Technically", my tent is considered a 4 man, but in Scoutfish sizes, it's more like 2.1 person tent.

 

I'm 6'2" and 255 pounds. 4 of me ain't fittin in that tent!

[DYB-Mike]

My two man MSR Hubba Hubba does fit two men been there done that, but to experience luxurious accommodations its a one man. I figure for every man a tent says it sleeps subtract one if you really want optimal sleeping accommodations.

 

I think that if a boy is with his parent then no matter what the sleeping arrangements are youre covered. Im would think any parent should be mindful of his/her sons interaction with other boys or adults with regards to changing and sleeping arrangements. If something happened and a parent was present I find it hard to believe the onus could fall on the pack leadership. I guess this is to say that if you have boys who are parentless then you must sleep them with other scouts alone. I would carry a couple of two or three man tents along with those large pavilions just in case.

 

This takes me back to posts about male/female communal sleeping arrangements. Our Pack has slept over on the battleship USS Massachusetts with sleeping arrangements similar to what the sailors experienced. We have also experienced communal sleeping arrangements at several other venues. The extra protection is that you also have a lot of other eyes watching, which is a good thing.

 

YIS

Mike

[Pack212Scouter]

DYB, Family Camping is indeed different (somewhat) that Pack Overnighters. BSA defines them as follows:

 

Family camping: an outdoor camping experience, other than resident camping, that involves Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting, or Venturing program elements in overnight settings with two or more family members, including at least one BSA member of that family. Parents are responsible for the supervision of their children, and Youth Protection guidelines apply.

 

Pack Overnighters: These are pack-organized overnight events involving more than one family from a single pack, focused on age-appropriate Cub Scout activities and conducted at council-approved locations (councils use Pack Overnighter Site Approval Form, No. 13-508). If nonmembers (siblings) participate, the event must be structured accordingly to accommodate them. BSA health and safety and youth protection guidelines apply. In most cases, each youth member will be under the supervision of a parent or guardian. In all cases, each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult.

 

What this means is that while Cub Scout camping is generally "family camping" Pack Overnighters can be treated slightly differently, just as Resident Camps are treated slightly differently.

[WestCoastScouter]

I just today had this issue come up, so great to be able to read everyone's opinions.

 

We are having our family pack campout in two weeks. One boy wants to go, and his mom would like him to go. Dad is serving in Air Force in Afganistan. Mom has a 1 year old baby also at home... Mom and boy want to spend the night...

 

I cracked open my Cub Scout Leader Book (2007 Printing), and on page 33-5, under "Planning a Pack Overnighter" - "Who attends?" it states,

 

"If a parent cannot attend, the boy's family must make arrangements for one of the other parents attending, or for another adult relative or friend, to be a substitute at the overnighter."

 

Now to me, that seems to be in conflict with the premise that a boy should be sleeping with a parent or guardian. It also makes good common sense. You would not just put him in his own tent, by himself. Heaven forbid some molester male is there, and at 2 am sneaks into this alone boys tent !!!

 

I think the idea for a parent/guardian in the tent is for the protection of the boy from the unthinkable.

 

So how then do I reconcile the above language from the Cub Scout Leaders Book, to that of "each boy must have a parent/guardian?"

[ScoutNut]

The Family Camping explanation is a kind of generic overview of an overnighter, for ANY BSA level, that includes families, Scouts, and works on program elements. This is usually a council/district event.

 

It then explains Recreational Family Camping, which is a family camping on their own, without a structured Scout program involved, on Council property.

 

Cub Scout Overnight Opportunities (of which Pack Overnighters is one) is an entirely different section.

[ScoutNut]

 

If the adult responsible for supervising a Cub Scout on a campout is not a relative then they should not be in the same tent. If the adult is a parent of another Cub Scout then the Scouts can sleep in one tent and the adult next to them in another. If the person is a relative, without any other children, then there are two ways to go. The parents give written permission for the relative to share a tent with their son. The relative buddies up with another Dad/Scout pair and the adults share one tent while the boys share another.

 

In your scenario however, none of this applies. You stated that the mom WANTS to spend the night with the boy on the Pack Family campout.

 

Mom - Scout son - sibling, all in one tent together.

 

Sounds fine to me. So what is the problem?

[DYB-Mike]

Pack212Scouter, I had read those definitions earlier.

 

In my humble opinion I think trying to define these different types of overnight outings is part of the problem. Essentially they are all the same: a pack plans an overnight stay, leaders and parents are recruited, sleeping arrangements are made, other arrangements (food, activities) are decided upon (or come with the venue), and everyone has fun.

 

I would suggest just simply calling that section something like Overnight Events and list the requirements (tour permits, BALOO trained leader, sleeping arrangements, permission slips, etc.) under that.

 

YIS

Mike

 

[WestCoastScouter]

Whoops... I see how I wrote that wrong...

 

I should have typed: "Mom wants her son to attend the overnight... but mom cannot with her one year old" (per mom's opinion)

 

Let me go back and edit that....!!!