Doing YOUR vs THEIR best

[ScoutNut]

If the boys participated in an activity IN THE DEN that counted toward an achievement or elective, then yes, by all means they should get credit for completing that achievement/elective activity.

 

If the DEN DID NOT do a specific activity then how on earth can a den leader possibly say/know that the activity has been done if a parent has not signed off that it was done at home?

 

Are you saying that just because it was not done in the den that you should automatically declare it completed?

 

SOMEONE in your den (den leader/asst den leader/parent/etc) should be keeping track of ALL of the Scouts, and know which Scout has completed what. That comes with the territory, and is why dens, especially large ones, need multiple leaders, and helpers.

 

BTW - Earning the Whittling Chip is NOT just a "filler" activity. It is one of the required activities to earn the Bear Achievement - "Shavings and Chips". That Achievement is one of the optional requirements for completing the "Self" section of the Bear Rank. If all of those 19-20 boys have already completed the "Self" section WITHOUT using "Shavings and Chips", then earning the Whittling Chip can be used as a Bear Elective.

 

Why is that wrong?

 

It really sounds to me like you, and the other asst den leaders, need to get together with your den leader to all get on the same page, and to plan out the rest of the year. It sounds like you are all going in different directions, and all doing your own thing.

 

 

Just wondering - in one of your earlier posts back in 11/09, you stated your Pack had 2 Bear dens. What happened to make your CM and CC decide to combine the two dens into one big mega den? What did the parents have to say about it?

[Scoutfish]

No, we have always had 1 bear den, but have split them into two groups to accomplish things.

 

We agreed a while back that come the next ( Webelos) year, we HAVE to split them, but did not want to do it mid year as this would probably be worse than having 24 in the den

[DYB-Mike]

Hi Folks,

 

Just got back from a hike with the Den and saw this. Just some thoughts:

 

At some point each of these boys need individual attention which they are not receiving in a den of 24. That the three DLs sons are the only ones to have finished the badge is good evidence of that.

 

While I agree that 24 is way too much for one den and that boys do need individual attention, I dont think that the fact that the leaders sons have advanced is good evidence of that. What it is good evidence of is that the den leaders care about the program and their sons advancement. In my own situation I have a Wolf Den of nine, seven who are really active. Of the seven, only two, my (the Den Leaders) son and one other boy have earned the Wolf rank to date. Three boys are very close, but are hung up on the at home requirements (#8 Cooking & Eating, #11, Duty to God). I use the Trax programs to track advancement and achievements and periodically share my records with the parents, who acknowledge that they need to get these things done. I have even done some of the other at home requirements in the Den with both scouts and parents (make a list of emergency phone numbers, for example), but, as Den Leader, I can only go so far. I believe most of these boys will advance, but the onus is on the parents on this point. Im not touching Duty to God in the Den.

 

Whittle chip can wait. Their rank advancement cannot. June 1st is the dead line.

 

Personally, I would give the scouts and their parents until August 31st to advance. I view June, July and August as the gray area. Some packs shut down; our Pack concentrates on Summertime Activity Award activities. If you have the rank you can work on the next, but if you dont, since the Cub Scout Year doesnt get rolling unit September 1st, why not give those boys the opportunity to catch up in the summer months? I have one boy who joined the Den late (in February). I dont think its fair to say too bad when we really arent going to officially starting Bear advancement until September anyway.

 

Scoutfish, I would only begin to assign to blame the leaders if there was absolutely no communication with parents as to what was expected and needed for advancement. Even then, ranks cannot be awarded by default if the requirements have not been met. Yes, if a boy does his best at a requirement in the den then it is completed. If the parent signs off in the book that the requirement is completed then yes, the requirement is completed. Otherwise it is not done. Even in the above situation the parents have the handbooks and would bear some culpability if little Johnny did not get his rank. Cub Scouting is a FAMILY activity and if the parents dont care enough to ask where little Johnny stands in advancement at any given point then they must shoulder some of the blame. They can always go to the Cubmaster if their questions are not being answered by the den leader(s).

 

Once again Scoutfish, wasn't this the EXACT same issue discussed in the thread you spun off of?

 

OK, that started with Tigers and you are now advocating it for your Bears.

 

That was exactly my reaction when I first started reading this thread!

 

YIS

Mike

 

 

[Scoutfish]

 

 

In my eyes: NO!

 

 

The Tiger post seemedto be more about giving them the rank just so they all could have it. Sure......everybody argued the merits of wether they earned it based on BSA plan, but the main thing was wether it shoudl be given so everybody would make it.

In my post, I was questioning at which point it would be the childs fault versus the leaderships fault if the child actually tried and did his best but didn't quite make it due to leadership selling the kid short.

 

Now, having read all the replies, I am reminded that even if we as leaders didn't purposely hold each kids hand the entire time... parents should/could have stepped in and said " hey, we need to do some work here!"

 

And yeah, I admit that I forgot about family time being a veruy important and integral part of the program. I guess I'm so involved with my son, I failed to recognize that others may not be so with their kids.

 

Anyways, I asked a question, got great answers that made me see stuff in a different light. For that I am glad.

 

And honestly, I'm glad I asked because it doesgive me an insight for next year on a personal level that I would noy have had just from reading in the Tiger Post.

 

As for being the same...well, that could be personal interpretation on our part, but I see what could be taken as the same end result, but due to different reasons as to why.

 

Ummmm....same effect , but from a different cause and for a different reason.

 

So my answer is no,not the exact same thing, but surely in the same catagory type.

[Basementdweller]

scoutfish

 

The bear den and the Webelos den is two different creatures. Akela can sign off on the cubs achievements. In the Webelos den the Den leader signs off on the requirements, not the parent. Now there are some the Parents need to complete, but the AB's the Den Leader does.

 

Have you got the books yet?

 

 

 

[Scoutfish]

Yeah, I know it's different with Webelos than Bears as far as signoffs go, I meant I'm using this as a lesson next year as far as communication goes.

 

Ecept religion, I think that one should be handled by mom and dad. I'll just have to take their word on that one as that could potentialy be a hornets nest!

 

I'm not trying to railroad the DL, but he doesn't always tell us what he plans. Rather he might ask us to do something right when he wants it done...without any prior warning or notice. Sometimes, he tells us that wewill be working on "X" next week, but when the meeting night comes, he "decided" that we should do something else instead.

 

Now, I still takesome responcibility as I could have called on Weds to see if everything was still a go, But he could have caled too since he ws the one who changed his mind.

 

You know, if it was jusyt me, I'd look closely at myself, but when 2 ADLs and 2 unofficial ADLs are all in the same situation...it can't be all our fault.

 

 

Yeah,I have the Webelos Leader Guide book, I already have Webelos Handbook and Cub Scout Leader Book. You ever read the post "How bad is this bad idea? That started due to the CSL book.

 

I was planning on getting the leaders How To activity book, but seems like I have found a ton of that same stuff online and can print out specific activitiy plans as needed.

 

That and I head that some programs may change?

 

[Scoutfish]

Speaking of Activity Badges....

 

When using AB Counsilers, do they sign of a check list that I in turn use to sign of requiremnts, do they counsil in front of me and the ADL and I sign based on that or do I print up some sort of check off sheet for the counsilers to check off that I transfer to achievements. Or do the counsilers check of the pages in the book and I check off on the den advancement sheet based on the books?

 

Did that make sense to you?

[ScoutNut]

That depends.

 

First of all, if you are using an Activity Badge Counselor of some kind, the first thing you want to do is to go over the requirements for the AB with them so you are both on the same page concerning what the boys need to do.

 

I most cases, the badge will be done during den meetings, with the den leader, and any asst den leaders, in the room, and the counselor running the meeting. In that case you know who was at the meeting, and what was covered. Either the den leader or the counselor can sign the boys books.

 

If the badge is done at an outside location, again, the den leaders will be there and know who is doing what. Either the den leader or the counselor can sign the boys books.

 

If it is something being done at home, with the parent approved by the den leader, then the parent should sign the boys books.

 

If it is something done at home on the boys own, then the boy should bring in the work for the den leader to approve, and the den leader should sign off in the boys book.

 

If it is something being done by the Scout thru school, parks dept, etc, his teacher, coach, etc, can sign off the boys book. The den leader talks to the Scout about what he has done.

 

If it is done thru a District/Council activity (Webelos day, Summer Camp, etc), in most cases the den leader will be there, or knows a Scout is attending the program. Whoever is in charge at the event will usually send something home with the Scout stating what he has completed.

 

Some people use the worksheets found at various different places on the web, some people use only the Handbook. Some use a combo of what ever works for them. Whatever you use, make sure the requirements get updated (signed/initialed & dated) in both the boys handbooks, and the den records. That way both the boy and the den leader knows what has been done, when, and what still needs to be done.

 

All this, and more, will be covered in your Webelos Den Leader Specific Training. As you have been admonished before, wait to start planning your Webelos year until AFTER your training.