Methods

[ScoutNut]

Hey Mike, A BIG THANK YOU! for spending a day helping fellow Scouters bring a better Scouting experience to the Cub Scouts, and their families, in your area!

 

Do you know yet which part(s) you will be doing?

 

 

[DYB-Mike]

ScoutNut,

 

Glad to do it! Ive do some other Cub Leader training as well my part was on advancement and uniforming. I enjoy meeting other scouters and swapping ideas and stories. In that way, I get trained as well.

 

I havent received the Baloo syllabus or my assignment as yet.

 

I remember my favorite part of Baloo training was making the foil dinners. I had never experienced them before and boy, were they ever good!

 

YIS

Mike

 

[Mom2Scouts06]

WTG on stepping up to teach part of Baloo Mike! I do Camping Equipment and one of the Round Robins (First Aid) and I love every minute of it! I like the chance to get to know different people from all over our District...it is alot of fun!

[Scoutfish]

Oh, It could totally be the way I'm trying to explain wnat I mean. I understand trhat what I'm thinking, what I type, what you read , and what you understand are 4 different things.

 

Now, I realize, and have said that using "methods" may not been the best idea. In the form I was using it, I was implying the completely generic duictionary definition of te word....not BSA's version of it.

 

My biggest point is/was/ and will continue to be: Why spend a weekenf d in the woods doing what we already do at all the den meetings?

Why not mix it up, change it around and make it interesting and exciting.

 

Now, I meamn this both in the sense of repetition and same kind of menu ( if that makes sense).

 

Why not do something totally different, un-heard of ( to these guys) and exciting?

 

As for burping, no, I'm not stuck on that particular idea. it could be a joke instead or even a talent display where each kid shows off whatever talent he has such as juggling, handstand, or even something rediculous such as drinking milk and squirting it out their eye. Whatebver it takes for a kid to stand up in front of a crowd, yet forget to be nervouse or scared. By doing something fun and different, he might forget to be nervous as the kid who reads off a paper at 10 octaves below human hearing.

 

The Reference to Wood Badge was that a guy who was just about finished with Wood Badge ( maybe 1 ticket from finishing... does that sound right?) was telling uis stuffto think about when working with Cub Scouts at campouts, and such.

 

 

Incidentally, I was reading a Boy's Life magazine today while at the dentist for my son. They metioned something about having a "Blind Mine Field Obstacle Course" during COPE training. WEll, about the time I started reading it, it was time to go, so I didn't finish.

 

Nope, have no idea what COPE is, but I did read that one boy verbally guides a another blindfolded boy through a "Mine Field" obstacle course.

 

So, my point was, lets teach them regular stuff such as team work, good sportsmanship, and such , but lets just do it in a new or fresh way every once in a while. Not the same old blah blah blah.

[John-in-KC]

Challenging

Outdoor

Personal

Experience

 

From a quick googlesearch...

C.O.P.E. is an acronym for "Challenging Outdoor Personal Experience." a COPE Course is a custom built challenge course or ropes course designed to meet the Boy Scouts of America (BSA)Project C.O.P.E. installation and operation procedures. COPE Programs are based on attaining seven goals outlined by the Boy Scouts of America (BSA).

 

The seven C.O.P.E. goals are summarized as:

Teamwork Teamwork is the key that allows a group to navigate a C.O.P.E. challenge course successfully. The C.O.P.E. challenge ropes course experience makes it clear that each individual can accomplish more as a member of a team than by going it alone.

Communication A C.O.P.E. challenge course encourage in the moment active learning of critical listening and discussion skills important for any group, troop or individual attempting to accomplish a difficult task.

Trust Participants completing difficult tasks on a C.O.P.E. challenge course develop trust in the C.O.P.E. staff members, their fellow troop members and themselves.

Leadership Team members attempting to solve problems on a cope course have abundant opportunities to develop and exercise leadership skills in small and large groups.

Decision Making Project C.O.P.E. requires groups and troops to make decisions by developing one or more solutions to a the specific obstacle, problem, or initiative. Teams must consider all the available resources and alternatives, and evaluate the probable results before moving forward.

Problem Solving Project C.O.P.E. challenges groups and individual to develop solutions to interesting problems. Participants must step outside of the box and frequently use creative ideas. Participants can then test their solutions and evaluate the results.

Self-Esteem Meeting the challenges of a C.O.P.E. challenge course allows individuals and groups to develop self-esteem and encourages them to set challenging yet attainable goals.

 

Cope course programming on a challenge course, rope course or team course emphasizes learning by doing. When we work with scouting associations, scout troops, scout camps, scouts and scouters on the design, installation, inspection and training of C.O.P.E. challenge courses, ropes courses and/or climbing towers we emphasize the need for a design that will accommodate all ages, sizes, shapes, and physical abilities. Our C.O.P.E challenge course options include innovative initiative elements, climbing towers vertical climbing elements and low and high ropes course challenges.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here is Camp Mountaineer (Morgantown, WV)'s COPE pages:

http://www.literati.com/cope/

 

Again from their website, here are the standards to run a COPE course. This is well beyond the resources of a single volunteer or even unit, this is Council Scout Reservation stuff:

http://www.literati.com/cope/framestandard.html

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Finally, to conclude, Scoutfish, there is a language of Scouting. We talk a lot about the AIMS of Scouting and the METHODS of each program level in Scouting. Much of this information is available at the National Council website. I haven't finished mining the place yet.

 

[infoscouter]

ScoutFish - you said: "My biggest point is/was/ and will continue to be: Why spend a weekenf d in the woods doing what we already do at all the den meetings"

 

A very valid point - and none of us I think are arguing against that. Most of our campouts *are* like that. I think this may be where some of us are having a disconnect - egg races, talent shows (tasteful), sack races, parent/kid baseball games, frisbee golf, shooting sports (allowed in my council) - these are all features of pack campouts in my pack and district. Some of this stuff doesn't go on at other meetings, but a lot of it does.

 

Nothing you've propsed so far is all that unusual or unlike what happens at den or pack meetings. If these things aren't like what happens at your meetings in your unit then something may be wrong in your program.

[Scoutfish]

Info,

 

WEll, I don't want to be one to say that my pack is or isn't missing something.

 

Honestly, I do believe the biggest issue I may be seeing, or that my pack is having may not be so much a "pack" issue, but rather, a "den" issue.

 

And in all honesty, it may just be me and not the pack or den.

 

Well here goes:

 

We have between 21 and 24 boys in our Bear den each week. That's alot. Matter of fact, theentire Bear "population" exists in 1 den, unlike the other dens which may number 2,3 or 4 different dens per rank.

 

From what I can tell, the leader of this den has been a leader since theu were Tigers. Now here is the thing: I think he was the ONLY leader because nobody else stepped up to be an additional leader.

 

This guy is a carpenter, and a home builder..so he's handy with wood and building projects. He probably has the knowledge to tie at least 30 different kind of knots in his head. He's an all around outdoorsy type.

 

So what do I think the biggest problem is?

 

Too many kids. Too much paper work concerning advancement, pins/beltloops, which scout has paid for what event and/or dues. Who owes monety for this or that. Some of our Bears reached trhe Bear rank months ago, other still have not. Sure, each boy has to advance at his own rate, but my son and 3 others for example have earned Bear, gold arrow point and two silvers.

 

Maybe with a smaller class, the divide would be less so.

 

Then, I guess if you are the only one "in charge" ( for lack of better term) then maybe over time, you get a kinda tunnel vision of sorts as to how to run a den.

 

Me, I like talking to the boys. And trust me when I say I can talk alot! LOL! But there is a difference between talking, lecturing, and teaching. I like physical activity too. I suppose I could talk about tents, but it would make more sense to get the boys outside and let them set them up.

 

I like the idea of an occasional field trip too. Inmy area, the CO is within 30 minutes of at least 12 historical sites: Civil war, revolutionary war, WWII, plus many other historical ( and youth friendly) sites. We have state parks out the wazoo, yet ( in my two years) have yet to utilize any of them.

 

At our pack campout, the den leader wants to hold a whittling chip session, which in itself isn't so bad...except.... not one parent has heard about it, beenasked about it, or knows about it . I just found out last night.

 

Now, I could be wrong, but sitting 21 or 24 boys down and just start teaching them to use a knife just doesn't sound too cool to me. And let me emphasis, we are talking pocket knives too, not plastic trainers or butter knives. Real deal , "somebody is gonna have an accident" knives.

 

Now, again, I could be wrong, but I can see sitting 5 or 6 kids down at a time and teaching whittling chip. But not 24 in one day.

 

So, I don't want to say our program is broken wrong. Partialy due to me not having years of experience, but I know something isn't quite right.

 

So far, I'm guessing the den size is a major contributing factor. Also lack of secondary or outside opinion from others allows one prson's ideas to go stale.

 

[DYB-Mike]

Scoutfish,

 

It does sound like you have an issue with the Bear Den as far as size goes with all those boys you have two or three dens there!

 

But it is a Pack problem. The Committee and Cubmaster should be addressing the issue of the Bear Den size and trying to recruit leaders for the additional dens. It also sounds like the Den Leader may be bogged down in paperwork that the Committee should be handling. For example, if you had an Events Coordinator, that person would be chasing folks down for payments due on events. The Treasurer could also handle that.

 

It sounds like you consider the Bear Den Leader a good, knowledgeable person. His tunnel vision might just be the fact that hes bogged down in the paperwork and trying to manage too many boys. You say he is outdoorsy but it sounds like he doesnt get the boys out much. Why do you think that is too many boys, lack of help or his busy personal schedule? Arent you his Assistant Den Leader? Does the Den Leader listen to your suggestions and accept your help or is he autocratic

 

You are correct that boys advance at their own pace and not all the blame can be placed on the den leader if boys dont advance. There are many requirements that must be handled at home and if the parents dont cooperate there is not much the den leader can do.

 

As for the Pack Family Campout, the Cubmaster is the responsible for the Program and he/she should be organizing the activities. Where is the Cubmaster in all this? If I understand you correctly it sounds like the Bear Den Leader just took it upon himself to hold the Whittlin Chit session. Does this mean that there is no set plan for the Pack Family Campout? Does the Cubmaster communicate with the den leaders about Pack events and make sure everybodys on the same page?

 

I think the Whittlin Chit activity was a good one and even though there were a lot of boys it would be doable provided there was proper planning and adequate adult supervision. Was it just the Den Leader running the activity himself or did he have any assistance?

 

It also sounds like there is a lack of training throughout the Pack and den leadership. Do you have a Pack Trainer on your committee responsible for coordinating training?

 

 

YIS,

Mike

 

[Scoutfish]

Well, I am the ADL, and we have two more ADL's , but not quite in an official capacity.

Trust me, I do alot of running around, helping out and assisting. I offer help left and right.

 

I offer my assistance alot as well as the two other ADL's. But we can only offer and only react when we are asked.

 

I think he is soo used to doing it all, that he continues to do as much as he can. And yes, paper work is a big issue if you ask me.

 

He( the DL) asked me about being the den registrar. I asked for the roster and got "Well, as soon as recharter becomes official." Then after that,it was " I have to compile it." Then it was " well, I don't have it because of advancement issues" , then turned around and asked parents for any advancement they "might" know of.

 

Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't that the registrar's job? To record that stuff??

 

 

Ok, I'll be totally honest: This guy and his wife have been doing pretty much what and how they want. On his part, it's straight up BSA outdoors/ scout stuff. She isn't quite so with the program...but that's another arguement.

 

I think they have a certain idea of what they think should be done , and if they give up any leadership over the boys, their(her) plan might not get carried out as they(she) see fit.

 

They (he) want/need help, but are too afraid to give up control.

 

 

And you know... we all have ideas and thoughts as to how things could be done or even things to try. Myself and the other ADL's have suggested ideas for skits ( only 1 performed as a Wolf last year ) activities and field trips. So far, activities are only done at CO in the few remaining minutes on den meeting nights, and fieled trips are only to fire dept. We have offered to do/ lead those activities too.

 

Myself and other ADL have taught/ led flag ceremonies when DL "suddenly" had to oversee a trip meeting, or help oversee a fundraiser planning session. And we did it with less that 5 mins notice.We were put on the spot and came up with an activity.

 

I even brought in a MRE that was given to us as part of a food drive. I thought it might make a great lesson on taking our freedoms for granted.

 

Know what I mean? : "I'm just toooo tired to cook, lets call out for pizza!" Meanwhile, a soldier may be in a cold wet ditch in the rain eating that MRE while fighting to keep our "lets be lazy and order pizza " butt's free!

 

I couldn't tell you what happened to that MRE. DL said it was a great idea!I gave it to him.Never saw it again.

 

Too many oppertunities keep getting wasted.

 

Like I said, I think the first and foremost thing to do is break up a den of 24 boys. It's not fair to the boys or the DL.

 

And you know, having an extra set or 3 of objectionable heads should help the program, not hurt it.

 

I'm not becoming a Webelos Leader next year out of competition, spite or any undermining reasons, I'm doing it because I want to. I really enjoy working with the boys,and I know I don't have to tell you the rewards!

 

I think the boys need it and the pack - without a doubt - needs it.

 

Right now, as much as I hate to say it.... den meetings are just an extension of going to school. The boys sit in chairs and listen to the DL talk and talk and talk.

 

And that is where this post originally came from. I want to do more than lecture and preach to these boys. I want to DO stuff. I want to wipe the glaze off thier eyes and get them pumped up and excited.

 

Sure, there will be some talking and lecturing, but I plan to follow it with doing too. Right now, it's just ...well...boring the tears out of the boys. And so far, the pack campouts are just about the same.

 

 

 

Now I do want to point out one more thing: Used to be that the committee was the leadership. Yeah, they knew that wasn't the right way to run it, but could not get people to do it. Nobody stepped up or cared to help.

 

This year, we have a great new ( and some old) praents really step up and help out. We finally have a completely seperate and fully staffed committee seperate from our leadership.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

[DYB-Mike]

Well Scoutfish, I must say I have a greater appreciation for your situation than I had with your initial scripted Pack Family Campout post way back when.

 

I am surprised that your outdoorsy Den Leader appears to be such an indoor lecturer.

 

Im still curious where your Cubmaster is in all this. My Pack is currently a small one, 33 registered boys with more like 28 active. Our Committee is basically the Den Leaders and myself (Cubmaster and Wolf Den Leader). We get along very well. I usually bring an outline for the Pack Meeting or other activity to the Committee Meeting and we hash it out from there. We share suggestions and everyone buys into the Program because everyone is part of the process. I wish we could get more parent input (sometimes we do) at the Committee level, but at least our parents are willing to help out by providing supplies and personpower when needed for the events.

 

By the way, I know that by the book I should not be holding Cubmaster and Den Leader positions, but that is by the will of the active leaders and currently its working. One thing Ive seen is that there is theory and there is practice. The most important thing is that the Program is being delivered to the boys and that the boys are learning, advancing, AND having FUN in the process.

 

I still also have the question about how the other parents in both your Den and the your Pack in general (as well as the other leaders) feel about the way things are going. Although the Law of the Pack says the Cub Scout makes the Pack go I personally feel its the adults that truly make the Pack go. If the Cubmaster is not providing leadership and coordinating with the den leaders, if the Committee is not providing the necessary backup support, and if the parents are not stepping up, then the Pack (the boys) suffers. Training (and meeting with other Scouters at Roundtable) helps the leaders understand and realize the importance of their roles within the Pack and dens. Sometimes you have to make due with what you have; it's harder, but not necessarily impossible. The Pack leadership always needs to be on the lookout for potential GOOD leaders to help make things easier and better.

 

The bottom line is you can have fun, just always keep in mind the aims of Cub Scouting as you plan (and you must plan to succeed) your activities.

 

I wish you luck moving forward. Others have offered you some great advice on this (and the earlier) thread.

 

YIS

Mike