How Bad is this Bad Idea?

[artjrk]

Time to be a stick in the mud.

 

You can't have an event and say part of the time is "family" time to allow families to do whatever they want. Family camping in Cub Scouts still needs to adhere to the many guidelines set forth by BSA. If you advertise the event thru the Pack/Troop then the whole event is a Pack/Troop event. Don't forget even the travel time to and from an event is considered. Just like your kids's school is responsible for your son's safety from the time the walk out the door to go to school to the time they get home. That is why tour permits check drivers.

 

I know as a new Den Leader I wanted to find the Loop holes to do the things I wanted to. But now after being in the program for almost 7 years I recognize and understand more. We all signed up to be part of Scouting. We all need to then follow Scoutings guidelines.

[Pack212Scouter]

artjrk, that is actually not entirely correct. Travel time and travel methods do not matter and are not part of the event unless made so. A Pack event starts at a specific time and location. If you are carpooling or riding as a unit, that would be wherever you meet up to get in vehicles, and BSA vehicle guidelines apply. If you are having an event at a specific location and time, then nothing that happens outside of that location/time is subject to BSA rules or requirements. For instance, me driving my son to a BSA campout does NOT make that drive subject to BSA liability coverage if I get in an accident. The only possible exception that I can think of to this is if a Den Leader decided to take a bunch of kids in his car. This could possible bring BSA vehicle rules into affect, however that STILL does not alther the event schedule. In this case, I would have a talk with that Den Leader since we did not set up or prepare for this by getting proper information from him.

[artjrk]

I stand corrected. After years in Boys Scouts where we always are carpooling I kind of got that into my mindset for cub Scouts as well.

 

I guess what got to me was the poster who said they would set aside time in the middle of the event to be "family" time. That just isn't right.

[Oak Tree]

artrjk, Why isn't that right? It's not like we're trying to get around the rules, we're just giving families some time. But more to the point, can you show me some evidence for your position "If you advertise the event thru the Pack/Troop then the whole event is a Pack/Troop event." I don't want to blatantly violate the rules, but I've never seen that one.

 

Scoutfish - the insurance argument isn't a good one. First, based on all my advanced internet learning kindled by Beavah, I'd say you're covered by BSA insurance regardless. Secondly, even if you were right, then why would someone bother to try to get around the rules? If you're going to get sued either way, you may as well call it a BSA event and hope they'll stand behind you.

[Scoutfish]

Artjrk.. Yeah, actually, I didn't say d0o whatever during a designated family time. I just said whatever they do before it starts is up to them. On our campout flyer/form or whatever you want to call it, it says that the camp/retreat opens at 4 pm. Well, actually, the gates are open all day long. Well, to be honest, the gates are always open, but it's used as a figure of speach implying when we are expected to show up.

 

So if family gets there at 2:30 and decides to go canoeing before anybody else shows up.,that is their buisness and not any part of a sanctioned pack event.

 

Now don't mistake what I am saying: I DO NOT LIKE THE IDEA! I AM NOT TRYING TO GET AROUND THE RULE. I AM TRYING TO KEEP THE PACK FROM GETTING AROUND THE RULE! ( not yelling, I'm emphasizing.)

 

 

 

[Scoutfish]

Oak Tree..

You sure about the insurance?

 

Li4e I said, I have no intentions of canoeing, I will not support the canoeing, not will I assit or help anybody else with the canoes.

 

But if I as a ADL , along with other pack leaders help scouts bget into the canoes KNOWING it is a DIRECT violation of BSA policy and against written G2SS guidlines, AND WE WERE AWARE OF IT BEFORE THE FACT.... couldn't BSA say that the permit was null and void as we did not foillow and adhear to the "contract" of the tour permit, BSA guidlines and policy.

 

I mean, If I was part of whoever is in charge of handling insurance.. I'd say "Oh no! We aren't coverimng that at all! And I'd argue in court that the reasons were that the pack mislead and lied about their intended activities when they filled out and filed the tour permit.

 

Granted, you would have to prove the pack knew beforehand that the activity wasn't allowed, but wouldn't a wavier for canoeing be just that proof?

 

 

[Oak Tree]

Scoutfish, there are some very lengthy discussions of insurance on the forum. If you bring up Beavah's history of postings, you can find some pretty convincing (at least to me) descriptions of how it works. I also searched out a number of insurance policies as well as court cases to see how they worked, and if you look at my history of posts (or search for insurance in my posts) you can find various threads on it.

 

The only items explicitly not covered, according to all of the documents I could find, were intentional and criminal acts.

 

One court case covered homeowners insurance. The teenage kid of the owner had gone through the house when the power was out, and he and his friends lit matches to light the way, and then dropped then. Not surprisingly, one of these started a fire and burned down the house. The insurance company argued that the kids intentionally lit the matches and dropped them, so they shouldn't have to cover it. But the judge ruled that the kids did not intentionally burn down the house, and so the insurance company had to pay.

 

Beavah also suggests that there may be exclusions on the master policy, like skydiving. Most insurance companies have some exclusions - like acts of war, or nuclear accidents, or terrorist attacks. I would guess, based on no inside information whatsoever, that the BSA's insurance company has similar things.

 

Do you think your auto insurance company will refuse to cover you if you are intentionally exceeding the speed limit? Or if you leave the car unlocked with your keys in it? Or if you run a red light and hit someone? How about if you intentionally run a red light because you're in a hurry? I'm neither a lawyer nor an insurance agent, but the whole point of insurance is to cover you pretty much regardless of the circumstances. It seems like virtually every single car accident involves some violation of the law - driving too fast for conditions, say.

 

At any rate, I can't see any way that declaring an event to be a non-BSA event would ever help you with insurance.

 

If you don't think it's a good idea, don't do it. But avoid it for the reasons JoeBob lists - because you don't want the kids to get hurt. Or avoid it because you want to set a good example.

[Scoutfish]

Oak Tree

 

Insurance isn't the reason I won't go along, but I thought it might be the icing on the cake.

 

My reasons for going against it is as follows:

 

*The Cub Scout Motto:* DO YOUR BEST

 

Best what> way of getting around rules?

 

*The Cub Scout Promise:*

 

I "X" promise to do my best,

To do my duty to God,

And to my country,

To help other people,

and to obey the Law of the pack.

 

Somewhere in there is does not say try to get around rules and regulations et by BSA, but under duty to God ande duty to country, you are expected to obey the rules and laws set by society, community and such - under God, we are expected at the least to make good moral jusdgements and to be honest and upstanding.

 

*The Law of The Pack:*

 

The cub scout follows Akela

The cub scout helps the pack grow

The pack helps the cub scout grow

The cub scout gives good will

 

So the scout will follow Akela, but what if he doesn't want to? What right have we to fuss if we as adults and leaders do te same thing against council?

 

Goodwill probably doesn't mean sneaking around rules or finding loopholes.

 

 

Now, I'm just too lazy to type the 12 core values,and it'snot like I just said anything you weren't awars of. LOL!

 

For me it comes down to this: As leaders we are "supposed" to be trying to teach our scouts to make good rational and respectable decisions. We teach them that they need to follow rules even if they don't understand them or the bigger picture behind them.

 

We tell our scouts that they should be upstanding and do the right thing even if it's not the most popular thing to do.

 

Then as adults, we sit and scheme about how to get around a BSA rule intended for our safety?

 

I have no doubt that you know the 12 points of the scout law in ways I cannot begin to understand.

 

So looking at those 12 points, we as leaders would be killing trustworthy and loyal.

 

We'd be totally destroying obediant and brave.

 

Granted, we could pass out MB's for Thrifty, but I don't think that is the right kind of thrifty.

 

Basically, it comes down to this...we spend meeting after meeting teaching scouts right from wrong, then as leaders we do the wrong thing becauze... "It might be fun." ?

 

How screwed up is that?

 

That is why I will not go along with the canoe idea at a pack family campout.

 

 

[Oak Tree]

Right - that's a good reason.

 

Sometimes on the forum I'll tend to generalize a problem and comment on various theoretical aspects of the situation. But people don't deal with theoretical problems on a day-to-day basis; they deal with actual events.

 

For your pack, in the situation you describe, it's not a good idea to do the canoeing.

[NeilLup]

Hello Scoutfish,

 

You may be able to get some help and guidance on this.

 

If you have a good Commissioner, I might invite them to the next Pack Committee meeting to participate in the discussion. Have them forewarned and forearmed. If you don't have a good Commissioner, then you might ask your District Exec to participate. It's tougher for the DE because it is close to a "no win" situation to tell a unit that they can't do what they want to do.

 

But I would suggest that your District and your Council exist to help you in situations like this. Let them provide that help and get them involved.

[jhankins]

The Charter Organization's own personal liability insurance through National can be put at risk for this kind of thing. Ignorance is no excuse when it comes to insurance claims and the GSS. We've had 2 claims denied in our council because of two different tour permit issues, so when this canoe decision situation comes to light after an accident, I would hate to be a member of the Chartered Org. Each person could be held liable for damages. That's not a chance I would be willing to take.

 

So, the committee wouldn't be able to put this on their tour permit, and they'd be leaving out a sanctioned part of their program. Bad idea.

 

 

[Stosh]

Each situation must be evaluated and general rules (and bending of rules) need to be adhered to.

 

However, with Council permission, I took by Webelos II den on a wilderness island campout. We left the boat landing with each Scout in a canoe with his parent paddling. We camped on an island with no facilities. And the boys had a blast. (Well, so did the dads.) Did I bend the rules? No, but I got a waiver of the rules.

 

The water was a calm lake and they were never any further than 50 yards from shore. They had to cross a 100 yard open water to get to the island and then stayed within 25' of the shore to get to the campsite.

 

They dug a latrine and whenever they were within 10' of the shore they were required to be in a life-jacket. If you were going to shore fish, you needed a life-jacket.

 

If boys wished to canoe on their own they needed to have two parents on shore and the boys could not go any further than 25' from the location of either of these two adults. This allowed the boys to try out the canoes without their parent.

 

Were rules broken? No, but a well thought out plan with every contingency covered can have certain "requirements" waived.

 

If the rules say Cubs can't be in a canoe on a scout activity, does that mean they can't be in a canoe with life-jacket, with parent in life-jacket and both have passed the BSA swimmers' test?

 

Stosh

[artjrk]

As far as families doing their own thing before and after a scheduled event, I am fine with that. I have done that myself. Our den went camping and after each family went home , drove over to go tubing down the river since were in the neighborhood.

 

What set off my alarm was Oak Tree saying that their Pack will set aside time in the middle of an event or make an event ALL family.

 

I guess what bothers me most about this a situation that happened here. We had an event that was labeled "Family" so the parents decided that with that being the case they were allowed to have drinks in the evening while the boys ran around playing. To me that is just WRONG. So the idea of using the "family" label to allow one to skirt by any BSA policy just bothers me to no end.

[Oak Tree]

jhankins, this is the first time I've heard of claims actually being denied for tour permit issues. That would be great data to have. Do you have more details? What were the claims, and what were the tour permit issues?

[Oak Tree]

Yeah, artjrk, that does not sound like a good situation. That's never come up in our pack, but it's good to have a feeling for the people you're going camping with to know how you're going to have to spell out the rules. Most of our pack's camping is at state parks where drinking is prohibited anyway.

 

When we say "go have some family time", we don't mean "stay in camp and break all the Scouting rules you want to." We really mean, "go do some fun activities as a family - whatever you might normally do." People have gone canoeing, but the pack didn't provide the canoes. As Stosh points out, it can be an incredibly safe activity.

 

Even if we were at someplace where drinking was legal, I'd object to parents drinking in camp during family time. I'd probably schedule it like this: "1:00-4:00pm, down time. You can stay in camp and hang out. Parents, if you want, you can take your kids out of our campsite and have some family time."

 

It really helps out if your adults are generally on the same page for their vision of the camping trip. If some are trying to use it as a way to sneak some beer, while others want to focus on outdoor activities, things probably won't go well. On the other hand, if all the dads in a den want to take their kids canoeing during some family time, things will be fine.