How Bad is this Bad Idea?

[Scoutfish]

We just had one of our pack leaders meetings a few days ago. WE talked about the usual stuff and also talked about our spring pack family campout.

 

Lots of stuff was talked about and the details would bore you to death.

 

One thing that was brought up by a den leader's wife was the possibility of renting 4 canoes and a registereed lifeguard during our April campout.

 

The cost would be somewhere around $200 for 4 canoes and the lifeguard for 4 hours.

 

I brought out the books and it showed that Cubs can not do this sort of thing at a non council or district sanctioned event. Well, it seemed like that was the end of the issue until the leader's wife insisted upon a vote.

 

So this brought up arguements about the ramifications of such events, liability insurance and such.

 

Now last year, we had BB guns and archery. I was just a parent then and had no idea this wasn't allowed. Alot of us didn't know ( or check). We let it go as "Ooops! Won't do that again!"

 

This time we do know.

 

Well, some how, it was determined that if we had parents sign a waiver that basically states:

 

" I understand that this is not santioned by the BSA, "X" Council, "X" district, or Pack "X". Futrhermore, in the event of unforseen accident, I understand that the risk is "At your own risk" and that any of the formention groups are not liable for accident or injury." -

 

That it would be an individual activity and not a pack activity.

 

To cover the cost, a hat would be passed around.

 

Okay, why do I feel like this is not just wrong, but trying to get around the system? What if those parents want beltloops for this? Why not a safe cracking beltloop too, or a "legal loophole" beltloop.

 

I mean, if we can justify this, why not get waivers for skeet shooting and mortor detonation too? Maybe get a few 4 wheelers and a ski boat too.

 

Hell, lets just set the woods on fire too...as long as they sign a waiver?

 

Am I being too strict minded to have an issue with the canoes?

 

 

I feel like the biggest message we might be telling the scouts is this:

 

"You can go around any rule if you just apply yourself."

 

And I feel like that is just the opposite of what scouting is supposed to be doing.

 

Man, I can't wait until I'm a leader next year!

(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

[UCEagle72]

It is clearly and knowingly a violation of the BSA safety rules.

 

I suggest you get your CR involved - regardless of any waiver that is signed, your sponsoring organization will be the liable party. I'm sure they don't want that liability.

[Eagle92]

As a former BSA Lifeguard and someone who has gone through NCS for CSDC, this is a bad idea, a really bad idea. I'm not a lawyer, but I am willing to bet that if something did happen, parents could and would go after the pack leadership, even if a waiver is signed.

 

Other questions I have inlcude the following: Who in the pack has taken Safe Swim Defense and Safety Afloat? Those are rules that guide most aquatic activies. It talks about such things as ability groups, training, equipment, ratio of lifeguards to swimmers, etc.

 

In addition to SSD and SA, there is also a CA Aquatics manual. In it it states that it is a district/council event, you need someone certified as a BSA Aqautics Director ( someone who is not only a BSA lifeguard, but TRAINS BSA lifeguards) or a CS Aquatics Supervisor (someone who si a BSA Lifeguard and trained in the extras of CS Aquatic programs.)

 

Maybe it's me, I'm a stickler for rules, but I wouldn't participate. I would aslo tell the committee why I am not going, and use the BSA literture to show that it's a realy bad idea. Further you may need to talk to the IH or COR. From my personal experience from a similar situation, you will not be a very popular person, but you may save a life.

[Eamonn]

Can't help but think that the Pack Committee Chair was out of line.

A Pack Committee should never have voted on something that clearly just isn't allowed.

 

This seems very much like the very long threads we have had in the past about Paintball and Lazar Tag.

 

While of course any parent or group of parents who want to get together and do an activity are free to do it (Long as it's not against the law!). The problem becomes "Is this a Scouting activity or not?"

I think that the Pack should distance itself as far away from this as possible.

The COR and the CO need to be made aware what is going on. If I were the CM or Pack Committee Chair. I'd ask for something in writing from the CO that states that the CO has nothing to do with this.

The Pack should not issue any sort of a disclaimer, by doing so the Pack is saying that it is aware that what they are doing is wrong.

It should be made very clear to all the parents that the Pack is not involved and has no part in this.

 

Parents can organize and do organize lots of activities that are outside of Scouting.

Back when OJ was a little fellow we used to have a Bar-B-Que, which a lot of our friends who had sons in the Pack attended. There was adult beverages for the adults and we had archery set up.

This wasn't a Pack activity it was me having a cook out in my back yard.

As bad ideas go? This one is bad.

Ea.

[Lisabob]

Agreed, not a smart thing for the pack committee to do.

 

Canoeing is a lot of fun. Probably a lot of cub-aged boys can handle it, in many circumstances. But the G2SS exists for a reason, and we leaders should have enough integrity to follow it when it comes to selecting activities for the scout unit.

 

Your leaders are not portraying themselves as trustworthy individuals in this instance. Not only would a waiver of the sort being kicked about be rather useless if things came down to a legal mess, but also, you (collective "you," not "you" personally, Scoutfish) are putting in writing that you know it isn't a sanctioned activity, but you plan to do it anyway (nod nod, wink wink). That's stupid.

 

What other rules are your pack leaders willing to blithely ignore, and why should any parent trust these people with the safety of their children?

 

 

 

 

[evmori]

This is a non-starter and should be brought to the attention of the COR.

[Basementdweller]

Canoeing isn't totally ban, but it says flat water and Council or District Activity only.

 

I would print the age appropriate activity chart and present it to the group. If your the only baloo trained adult I would make sure to tell them that you will not permit the group to use your name on the tour permit. Of course with what you have posted I will wager that they don't bother with a tour permit.

 

Bring it up for a vote even after showing her the age specific guidelines. hmmmmm.

 

Doing the right thing can be painful, I am going to bet this is going to be one of those times.

 

Scoutfish.....your not next years leader, You have already stepped up. Most leaders I respect don't need a title or permission, the natural leader. It just happens, they just lead and people follow.

 

[Scoutfish]

Thanks!

 

I am not a sticler for every detail, and I do know that some rules are just plain stupid, but in this case... I don't like going against the rule.

 

The more I think about it, the less I like it.

 

Now, I wonder about something else: How may core values are we ditching by doing this?

What parts ( if not the whole thing) are we ignoring in the scout promise, motto, and law of the pack?

 

Now,I'll be honest: This bothers me for two reasons:

1)Because of everything I mentioned so far..and

2) The person who's idea it was is usually the one to put us to task of "doing the moral thing" or "setting a good example under God."

 

 

 

I guess it's only important unless you want to do it, huh?

 

Granted, I helped break a BB gun rule last year as a parent, but knowing now what I do, I won't make that mistake again.

 

But this time, we know about it before hand and are plannuing on working around it?

Nah, that's just not right!

 

 

Well, everybody, thanks for your imput. Time to go and step on some toes!

[Snow_White]

Good luck, Scoutfish. You're doing the right thing.

[Scoutfish]

Okay, I made a few calls. Out CubMaster did not attend the meeting that night due to work obligations. I called her and explained how the meeting went. Seems nobody thought to bring up anything to our CM.

 

Not saying they avoided it, just didn't think about it. The CM is going to check - just in case- to see if pack family rules are different than district or council.

 

CM doesn't like the idea of it, but wants to make sure so there is an absolute and correct final word on it.

 

After talking to a few other leaders, it turns out quite a few don't like the idea, but just didn't want to be the odd man out.

 

Honestly, since this cost was to be covered by "passing the hat", I think it would have died for lack of funds.

 

If nothing else, I personally did what I felt was the right thing to do and I did not back down or let others sway me.

 

At the very least, I made the other leaders and committee know my views.

[IM_Kathy]

very bad...

 

BUT, one way we have gotten around this issue is stating on our flyers that our event is at ___ and will go from #:##-#:## and we will be doing ______ if your family would like to explore the campsite and the other activities they offer then they are free to do so before or after our event.

 

this means that my family can show up a couple hours early and go canoeing on our own and totally seperate from the scouting activities and it's totally onto the parents for safety and liabilty

[Oak Tree]

Like IM_Kathy's pack, our pack will do the same thing. If we're camping at a state park, we might list pack activities in the morning, and say that 1:00-4:00pm (or whatever) is family time for you to do whatever you want in exploring the park. If a family chooses to rent a canoe, that's their choice. We've even done campouts that are all family time. We camp together, but you're on your own for activities.

[JoeBob]

Ways for Cubs to get hurt in canoes:

 

1- Fall from one boat onto another. Canoes rock back and forth a lot!

2- Tip one canoe onto another boat. Two cubs on the same side of a whitewater boat with no paddle bracing skills are wet.

3- Tip canoe into the dock during ingress/egress. Everybody leans in when they reach for the dock. Using a paddle/thwart brace takes a good bit of co-ordination. (Handle of paddle held fast on one thwart, throat of paddle held tight on the opposite thwart, blade of paddle outside the boat on the side to exit. Canoist leans towards the bank or dock until the paddle blade comes to rest and their weight on the dock via the paddle blade provides a balance point. Maintain this position by holding on with both hands while exiting, until your center of gravity is ashore.)

4- Slip and fall inside your own boat. ABS is slippery when wet.

5- Feed a paddle blade to your buddy. "But I was just trying to splash him!"

5.5- Eat your buddy's paddle blade. "We were sneaking up behind them..."

6- Become trapped between two boats while in the water.

7- Pull your buddy on top of you as you try to scramble up the side of his boat in deep water.

 

Heck with breaking the rules; canoes are too much fun when taken on at the appropriate age. I'd not want to sour a future fun time with a negative exposure too soon.

 

JoeBob

[Scoutfish]

IM_Kathy:

 

 

I don't have any issue with what you said. My son and I go boating ourselves. Matter of fact, I let ghis steer and run the throttle a little bit here and there too( rest assured I'm standing right behind him). You know... because it's cool and fun.

 

My problem is:

 

1) Are we teaching Scouts to find a way to go around rules they don't like? Where does it stop?

 

2) If somebody really did want to sue.. well, I beleive a jury would say: "Since your pack contacted the canoe rental, rentred the canoes, rented the canoe guide/ life guard... and did it all during the middle of a pack family event..you are indeed resposnsible for anything that happens. Furthermore, by trying to use a wavier as a scape goat, we are actually proving that we did indeed know it was wrong and proceeded anyways.

 

But you are right about what yopu said: If anybody shows up early, and does something on their own accord.. that's their buisness.

 

This camping area is actually Church owned retreat/ get away/ camping/ lodge area, and we are renting the use of it. It is not a public park or national parks/ camp ground.

We show up Friday afternoon and set up your own tent, and help out with the "dining hall" ( big tent) .

Then you are pretty much on your own Fri night including your own supper.

 

Saturday, it officially kicks in at 8am ( allows time if you didn't stay Fri night) We start with a pancake and bacon breakfast. Diferent dens are responcible for helping prepare meals, clean up, etc.. W do some activities, until lunch. Another den helps with that, Around an hour of free time and then more activities.

 

Later we have supper and some free time.

 

In the fall, we have a campfire gathering and just talk, hang out, do both cub and adult skits.

 

For this spring, we are having out "official" Crossover ceremony with bridges, OoA Indians and also have lined up a handfull ofactive military for a flag retirement ceremony.

 

Sunday morning, it's a hot chocolate/ coffee and honey bun breakfast.

 

Scout's reverance.

 

Break camp, clean up and do the LNT thing.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

[Scoutfish]

Ooops! LOL!

So I meant to add: On Friday, after you set up your own tent/ campsite, you are free to do what you want. If any individual family wanted to go swimming, canoeing, rock climbing, snipe hunting, etc... as individual families.. Then that's up to them.

 

But they should bring their own canoes and not ones the pack rents.