will Tigers be fully integrated in 2010?

[MNBob]

I do not believe that Webelos are considered Cub Scouts. They are in the Cub Scout program but they are Webelos Scouts. If I understand correctly the Cub Scout program used to consist of Tiger Cub Scouts, Cub Scouts and Webelos Scouts. At that time boys earned their Tiger badge before the Bobcat badge. In 2006 this changed and the Tiger badge was earned after Bobcat and "Search, Discover, Share" was removed. Tiger has replaced Wolf as the first Cub Scout rank. So instead of Tiger Cub Scouts, Cub Scouts and Webelos Scouts the program just has Cub Scouts and Webelos Scouts.

[ScoutNut]

Integration does NOT mean that everyone is doing the same thing, and needs the same training.

 

BSA uses 3 - DIFFERENT - AGE APPROPRIATE - programs for Cub Scouts.

 

So, BSA has 3 different trainings for the 3 different Cub Scout programs.

 

Tiger Cub Scout program - An Adult Partner MUST participate along side their Tiger. Three different types of Achievement requirements, Den, Family, and Go See It. Shared Leadership.

 

Wolf/Bear Cub Scout program - Adults no longer required to attend with Scout, no more adult/Scout teams. No separate requirements specifically for families, although (currently) families are encouraged to work on requirements at home. More choices for the YOUTH to make (currently).

 

Webelos Cub Scout program - Parents are no longer able to sign off on any and all requirements. All advancement is approved by the Webelos den leader, or an adult approved by the den leader. No more Immediate Recognition beads. Activity Badges instead of misc requirements. Can camp as a den. Encouraged to attend Boy Scout activities.

 

There is nothing wrong, or questionable about it.

 

Would your training as a Webelos den leader have helped you be a good Wolf den leader? The same is true for Tigers. Your training for Wolf/Bear/Webelos will not help you run a Tiger program.

[ScoutNut]

Webelos are very definitely CUB SCOUTS. All Cub Scout rules, regulations, and guidelines apply to them.

 

As I stated, there are 3 distinctly different age appropriate programs that make up the overall Cub Scout program -

 

Tiger

Cub Scout (Wolf/Bear) (I guess BSA could rename this Middle Scouts, or some other such group name)

Webelos

 

Would you state that Webelos are not "integrated"?

[MNBob]

Would your training as a Webelos den leader have helped you be a good Wolf den leader?Yes

The same is true for Tigers. Your training for Wolf/Bear/Webelos will not help you run a Tiger program.I disagree but we're all entitled to our opinions.

 

My opinion may be in the minority but official training is not all that enlightening. You get an understanding of how Cub Scouts is organized and you get ideas from people who have done it before. But no one is going to convince me that after going through two other den leader classes (and committee training too) that Tiger training is going to provide me with any additional benefit. That's giving too much credit to the training program. I'm not tryiing to criticize training. It's a good thing but lets not pretend that a couple of hours suddenly prepares you to for everything.

 

[MNBob]

Webelos are very definitely CUB SCOUTS. All Cub Scout rules, regulations, and guidelines apply to them.The rules, regulations, etc are the Cub Scout program. Webelos are part of the Cub Scout program. That's what I said. Sorry that I've made this a semantics argument. I agree what Webelos are Cub Scouts but in a Pack meeting we'll sometimes refer to "Cub Scouts" meaning all the boys and other times we'll differentiate betwen "Cub Scouts" (Tigers, Wolves and Bears) and Webelos Scouts. My main point is that I see more difference between Webelos and other ranks than Tiger compared to Wolf and Bear. Tigers require parents. That's the only major difference IMO.

[Eagle92]

MN,

No problems from me.

 

However I must state as a long time Scouter, 18 years this year as a scouter, plus 10 more as a CS and BS, When I went through the CS Basic Leader Training a few years back, and Taught all three DL Specific courses (TCDL, CSDL, and WDL) I did find all still helpful and did noticve the differences. PLUS having worked CSDC this past summer, and working on program for this years, there are BIG differences between the different program elements of CS based uipon the abilities of the boys.

 

HOWEVER that said, I read somwhere, sorry can't cite the specific location, that the TC den format will be coming more into line with the other programs areas come May 2010. I personally am interested in what's up as I am the only one signed up as a CS trainer in my district so far!

[MNBob]

Having took both CSDL and WDL training I understand the differences and the need for two classes. Webelos is definitely a change from Wolf Bear. I do not have the benefit of having actually taught the courses.

 

Eagle92: Can you list some of the differences betweeen TCDL and CSDL training that help justify the need for two courses?

[bbender]

On the comment that "read somwhere, sorry can't cite the specific location, that the TC den format will be coming more into line with the other programs areas come May 2010", here's a link with information: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/cubscout2010/ppt/orientationpresentation1-21-2010.ppt, a good bit of which is contained in this recent "Baloo's Bugle": February 2010 Bugle. Among other things, this confirms that the Den Meeting Structure will be the same for Tigers, Wolves and Bears -- Tigers will no longer have "Search, Discover, Share" formats.

 

As a result, this further reduces the differences between Tiger and Wolf; yes, it doesn't eliminate the differences, but reduces them. Given difference in requirements and age related abilities (and requirements reflected age related abilities), there will always be differences.

 

For what it's worth, I personally believe that because the vast majority of the break-out detail in any of the three levels of Den Leaders Position Specific Training is similar (and often exactly the same), there is value in giving a more comprehensive training that covers all levels, so that differences, where they occur, are highlighted and explained. That, I believe, makes the important distinctions more apparent and appreciated. Plus, it helps (for example) a new Wolf Leader better appreciate how/why things would be done differently compared to last year's Tiger meetings, and why. It also helps leaders work with and train each other, as a Tiger Leader would be able to know and relate to what Wolf, Bear and Webelos Leaders are doing (and, in some cases, set them straight if they haven't taken training!) Given that training, there can then be modest Q&A breakouts to highlight specifics at a given level.

 

Of course, there is going to be a new set of training for all of this shortly, based on information in that link, so . . . who knows what the new current official training will look like!

 

P.S.: that recent "Baloo's Bugle" at www.usscouts.org/bbugle/bb1002.pdf also contains a great Bill Smith column that echoes a training belief of mine: that Den Leader is the hardest job, so the job of all is either to be a Den Leader or support the Den Leader. To that end, my preference would be that Cubmasters and Committee learn the Den Leader job through training, and that Den Leaders get trained to know what Committee folks and others are supposed to do -- so that they don't hesitate to put them to work! (Yes, all of that is not necessary in a fully stocked Pack structure with all jobs clicking along with trained leaders, but . . . not all Packs are like that).

[MNBob]

bbender: Thanks for pointing out that link to Baloo's Bugle! We're holding an important leaders meeting on Sunday and I've been trying to collect as much as information as I can about Cub Scouts 2010. The PDF has some good information that I haven't seen before.

 

I also liked Bill Smith's column about Den Leaders. I've been telling leaders for the past couple of years that I feel den leader is the toughest job and we should avoid having den leaders fill multiple roles. Of course then I violate my own suggestion by also serving as the Committee Chair. I would add that from my experience Den leader is the most work but Committee Chair has been the most frustrating. Dealing with other adults and trying to get leaders to perform their volunteer duties can be tough.