Define what is family - Pack Campout ??

[WestCoastScouter]

A den is not allowed to go on its own campout...

 

A pack may conduct a family campout...

 

So my Question is: What is a pack family campout? Does this mean that the whole pack must be invited? What if only one age group of the pack, with their parent attends?

 

What if the parents of our den wants to do an overnight, just us at the nearby Scout Camp on a Saturday night ? Must we invite the rest of the pack to go with us? Must we organize it for the whole pack to attend?

 

or is the term "family campout" meaning that the cub scout must be acccompanied by the adult..?

[Scoutfish]

A pack family campout means the whole family in aparticular pack can go. This means momand dad AND sister and that brother who is just too cool to be a scout.

This is different than a parent son campout where only a registered scout and A parent attend.

 

Dens themselves cannot camp as an official Scout function. Except at Santioned council events and campouts.

Unless you are a Webelos. Then you can camp on the den level.

 

Does that clear it up? LOL!

[Oak Tree]

Yeah, WestCoastScouter, I've had that question too.

 

My answer is that for it to be a "pack campout", you have to invite the pack. You also have to follow the pack campout rules, which is mainly that you have to have a BALOO-trained leader.

 

But you could do it. Just send out an email to the pack - "Den 3 is planning a camping trip to Letchworth State Park. They plan to do various den activities together. Anyone in the pack is invited to come along, but will need to plan their own activities." I think that would meet the requirement. If no one else comes along, it's still a pack campout. I don't think you need to organize anything, beyond making sure that there's enough space.

 

I think they use the words "family campout" to emphasize that parents are always invited along and would normally be expected to attend camping trips with their son.

[ScoutNut]

I don't think that stating that the Tiger den is going camping, and the rest of the Pack can come along too if they want, but everyone else will have to plan their own activities, meals, accommodations, etc, is what BSA has in mind for a Pack campout.

 

A Pack campout is planned, and run, by a BALOO trained leader, from the very start, as a PACK EVENT, on the PACK CALENDAR, with a PACK BUDGET. It must be communicated as a PACK EVENT, with the entire Pack encouraged to attend. There must be activities included for all age and ability levels.

 

BSA's outdoor program is progressive. It is meant to be that way. Starting at the end of the program, with den camping (even if you call it Pack camping) defeats the the whole point of the program.

 

[DeanRx]

As others have stated - A pack campout should be a sactioned unit event, planned by the unit (Pack) committee, and have oversight from a minimum of ONE Baloo trained adult. Also, you should have a minimum of 2 YPG trained adults along on the campout. Family camping is just as it sounds - everyone in the family is invited.

 

Den camping is reserved for Webelos only. Even then, a minimum of ONE adult (on the tour permit) must be WELOT trained for the den to camp as a den. Same YPG rules apply.

 

Again, as others have stated, the camping portion in scouting (especially in cubs) - is a progression. If they den camp as a wolf, what's left until they are in a Boy Scout unit?

 

We have a group of families within our pack that like to camp. We do our own camping trips in which we do things that we want to do (some of which are not allowed per G2SS for scouts our son' age). These are NOT pack functions (even though a majority of the pack committee might be on the trip), and they are not published to, nor is the entire pack invited. We do not have to worry about YPG, or any other training or guideline except us being responsible for our own kid(s). We do sometimes do things or work on things that can count towards rank achievements for the scouts that happen to be camping with this group of families... but its not designed around the socuting "program" per se.

 

The BIG difference is - we understand and KNOW that our extraciricular (if yo want to call it that) camping trips are not covered in anyway by BSA insurance.

 

The reason for the guidelines and regs on YPG, BALOO, and "you can't camp as a den until Webelos, and even then you must have a WELOT trained leader" - is that BSA has set this policy to mitigate risk on its umbrella insurance policy. Its safety and insurance, simple as that.

 

So - you want to have a camping club and those invited to be in the club just 'happen' to all be in the same den within your pack? Fine, you can do that. You just can NOT associate the trip with the unit or BSA in anyway. And you dang well better not be spending unit funds to supply you're side tip. If you just happen to work on a few rank advancement things while camping, then its no different than a scout working on them on their own when camping with just their family.

 

I know it sees like splitting hairs, but BSA has its reasons for the policy and it lies with liability, insurance, and premiums.

 

[Oak Tree]

"must be WELOT trained " - can you show me a reference for this? I don't believe this to be the case, but I'll take a look at a reference.

 

"I don't think that stating that the Tiger den is going camping, and the rest of the Pack can come along too if they want, but everyone else will have to plan their own activities, meals, accommodations, etc, is what BSA has in mind for a Pack campout." - I agree, ScoutNut. It's not what they had in mind. But the program is flexible.

 

"on the PACK CALENDAR, with a PACK BUDGET. It must be communicated as a PACK EVENT, with the entire Pack encouraged to attend. There must be activities included for all age and ability levels. " I think these are all typical things, but I don't think they are mandatory. Our pack actually has two types of campings trips. One, the more formal ones, which are held as you describe, and are well-attended. The other, a much smaller group, are just some extra chances for camping with other pack families, where it's up to everyone who comes to figure out what their own activities are.

 

"If they den camp as a wolf, what's left until they are in a Boy Scout unit?" I really don't like this argument, which might be somewhat of a personal thing, because I heard it all the time as Cubmaster from various places. "Don't do the fun stuff now." Good grief. When the kids get older, the troop can do more stuff that's more exciting and age-appropriate for them. Take the Webelos somewhere that you wouldn't take the Wolves. Take the Boy Scouts places you wouldn't take Webelos. I decided that it was up to the troop to take care of their own program. As Cubmaster, I wasn't going to intentionally lessen my program. And anyway, I'd actually argue it can go the other direction. The families who camp a lot when the kids are young get them very much into the habit, so it's just natural to keep doing it when they are older.

 

Anyway, I'll stick by my answer to WestCoastScouter.

 

[AnaMaria]

The guidelines for Webelos den camping that I've read recommend WELOT/OWL training, but it is not required. If it is I'd like to see the reference as well. I'm currently a den leader for 4th grade Webelos son & will be for his 5th grade year and then will do both years for the youngest as well. I have done WELOT and Webelos den leader specific as well as BALOO.

[Eagle92]

Currently, and I stress CURRENTLY, the outdoor Webelos training is reccommended, not mandatory, at this time EXCEPT in those councils that are part of the mandatory training pilot program. I did a google search of this a couple days ago, and the only councils requiring OWL apparently are the beta councils. Also 1 beta council, sorry can't remember which one but it's in the mid west, stated that OWL is mandatroy for Webelos Leaders to be considered trained.

 

SO it looks as if in the very near future the new Outdoor Skills Course, yep a new course covering Webelos, Scout, and Venturer outdoor training will be out very soon I'm told, will be required to be consisdered trained.

 

As to why I looked it up? I was told that I would be needed to take the Webelos camping since I am the only person currently with outdoor training. BALOO and IOLS (ok it was really SMF ).

[DeanRx]

We must be in the pilot program in SD then. I have been specifically told at numerous training sessions, round tables, and by our DE, that a local tour permit MUST be signed by someone who is WELOT trained or the council office will reject the tour permit (thus nixing the den camping trip).

 

As for my comment about "if then den camp as a wolf, whats left for Boy Scouts...: - I understand. As a CM, I too am often tired of hearing about things they can't do now, but will be able to do once they are 14 y/o and in Boy Scouts. However, I do think there is some merit to the statement that if they do everything their 1st couple seasons, then by Web II you have a hard time getting them to stick around.

 

We need to provide program at the unit level that is a progression, so that each year the scout is exposed to new things and challenges, so that they do not become bored with the repetition. There should be things a Web can do that a Tiger, Wolf, or Bear cannot - both developmentally and as a matter of maturing through the ranks.

 

my 2cents worth.

 

Dean

[Oak Tree]

if they do everything their 1st couple seasons, then by Web II you have a hard time getting them to stick around.

 

There is a lot of truth to that. This happens a lot to programs that get stale, both at the Cub level and even more so at the Boy Scout level. It takes work to identify new and different things to do, places to give more opportunities, and it often takes more leaders to make some of these things happen. In a lot of troops, you see a big drop off at around 14, as the Scouts have done everything that the troop has to offer, and don't want to hang around at troop meetings or camping trips for "more of the same".

 

There is certainly a natural progression built into the program, and at the Cub level, where the adults have complete planning authority, you can also introduce some "artificial" progression, as you decide which age groups might have opportunities to do what. I personally like to take everyone camping as much as I can, so I wouldn't make that too much part of the progression, but the program is set up for Webelos to do more camping than the younger kids, for sure.

 

For the record, here's what I found on Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Leaders on the national web site:

Webelos den leaders should attend this training before conducting Webelos overnight camping with the boys and parents of the den. It says "should", not "must" or "are required to".

[Oak Tree]

And for comparison, here's what the national site says about BALOO training.

 

This training is required for any adult who is in charge of planning a pack campout.

[DYB-Mike]

"if then den camp as a wolf, whats left for Boy Scouts

 

Plenty! Just the nature of the two programs, the Cub adult-lead vs. the Boy Scout boy-lead, makes Boy Scout camping a different experience. Im only a novice camper, having camped in Cub Scout, Boy Scout, and non-scout settings, and Im sure seasoned campers would agree that the science of camping and woodcraft is huge and there is plenty to learn and experience in the 12 year span that is Scouts. Add to that outdoor games, activities, and nature study. I dont think the boys would get bored by starting camping early, but more with attending poorly planned campouts at the same location with no activities to challenge them or that are fun.

 

When I try to sell the program to potential Cub Scouts at Roundups it is camping that is the number one draw. My Wolf Den is constantly asking when are we going camping (fishing is number two). We as leaders worry about retention, getting our boys outdoors, and competition with sports, but yet the BSA puts restrictions on our most potent weapon against these issues.

 

I have trouble understanding why a small group of boys (a Den) poses a greater liability risk than a whole Pack, assuming that adequate adult supervision/coverage, Youth Protection, and other Safe Scouting guidelines are followed in both instances. Does anyone know of any statistics that would support the current BSA position on Den camping?

 

The concept of progression was discussed. The interests, abilities, and maturity of an 8 year old are much different than that of a 13 year old (well, maybe the maturity is debatable), so I think the answer would be to provide age appropriate activities and challenges in the camp setting, not simply just saying that the 8 year old Den cant camp and the 13 year old Patrol can.

 

I really feel that the BSA is missing the boat on Den Camping and the fact that folks have crafted ways to deal with the prohibition is to me an indication that National should take a look at the issue.

 

It kinda strikes me as a hold-over from the days when Cubs were viewed as an afterthought, not even worthy of the name Scout.

 

YIS

Mike

[bear dad]

DYB-MIKE,

 

Agree with you, about DENS as along as the safety requirements are in place and people are trained. have a boy wanting to leave becuase we have not went yet,"see working with kids" threads.

yes i have heard people going around the rules to go, but don't want to do this just make 1 boy happy.

 

Think your right about retention or recruting,lot of boys no matter what ages like the outdoors. Shoot for a new Tiger cub just going out side getting to sleep in a sleeping bag in a tent in the BACK YARD is a BIG DEAL!

They don't even have to do anything else.

 

Maybe people up at BSA need to look at this with open mind, and think how it could help promote scouting in general.