CM overstepping his authority?

[ScoutNut]

Sorry Oak, but while it might be minor to you, I doubt it would be minor to a 4th grader who is not allowed to get the Webelos rank award he has earned.

 

The CM asked for CNYScouter to involve himself in the issue, even though CNY has no affiliation to the Webelos den. Now that he knows what the CM was up to, I feel CNYScouter should give him the feedback he asked for. Ignoring it is the same as agreeing that it is alright to do it.

 

On the topic of Merit Badges, they are part of the Boy Scout advancement program, not the Cub Scout program. Different program, different rules. Yes, a Merit Badge Counselor must fill out a separate BSA adult application for that position. They also have to fill out a Merit Badge Counselor application stating which merit badges they would like to be a counselor for. Both have to be approved by their local council.

 

Webelos den leaders only need to be registered as a Webelos den leader. Adults instructing Webelos Activity Badges do not have to be separately registered, or registered at all. They do, however, have to be approved by the Webelos den leader.

 

The Webelos rank award requirements in question by CNYScouter's CM are not related to Webelos Activity Badges.

 

 

 

[Oak Tree]

Yeah, ScoutNut, I agree that it could be a big deal to a 4th-grader. That fact is not yet in evidence, though. Right now it's just a dispute with three adults involved, from how I read it. I wouldn't want to deny the Webelos Scout the badge, either, but I'd suggest there are polite ways to effect some change.

 

Re-reading your post, I realize that there was really only one word that I would have toned down (and your post wasn't the most strident one, for sure.) You suggested a pretty good method of approaching it, as far as I was concerned. The only change I would make would be to replace 'show him the policies' with 'show him what the Webelos Scout and his parent learned from the Webelos book'. I think you're right with the way you started your response to me - the more you can make the discussion about what's best for the Webelos Scout, the better. And the book says something like "When a Webelos Scout passes requirements, he takes his book to the Webelos den leader or an adult the leader designates."

 

"Get with your commissioner and District Advancement Chair if all else fails." - This would be a pretty extreme case. Wouldn't it be easier just to make a fun game of memorizing the Oath and Law and being done with it?

 

[evmori]

Why is the CM even involved with this? This is not a CM responsibility! If the WEBELOS den leader signs off on the requirement, it's done! End of story!

[Lisabob]

I like TwoCub's approach of WE and OUR. I also agree with Oak that this has the potential to be blown out of all proportion and cause larger problems than it will solve. From CNY's description this is a small pack that has recently undergone some growth, with a dedicated leader (that most people like?) who has been the stable force for the pack.

 

A friendly conversation is one thing, and this CM is probably used to doing a lot of things himself, since he's been there a long time and it was a very small pack. That conversation might include some talk about ways to bring in and empower the newer den leaders by letting them do their job. Even though it is not the CM's place to be authorizing individual advancement or to add memorization to the Webelos requirements, a confrontational approach probably isn't going to be productive.

 

Maybe a good compromise would be that the Webelos DL encourages all his boys to memorize the law, oath, motto, and slogan. After all they need to do it for AOL anyway, and they can turn this into a game of sorts. Let them show off to the CM, rather than "be tested by" the CM. Play it as a goal to reach for - something to get them excited about getting the CM to sign - instead of a scary big requirement. And then get the CM to sign for the AOL requirement and praise the heck out of the kid, when they accomplish it.

[The Blancmange]

Here's what I would do as a WDL: Once I am satisfied that the boys have completed the real requirement by explaining the oath, law, motto and slogan (along with all the other requirments, obviously), sign them off in the book, fill out and turn in to the CM a Den Advancement Report http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33847.pdf

 

When the CM questions it, point out that the WDL is Aklea for Webelos and is the one who should sign off on these things. When he still refuses to give the award, discuss it with your CC. If it needs to go beyond this, I would find a new pack. However, I think it might be interesting to see what happens when you find a parent whom you know well to file an appeal to your district for denial of a Cub rank. That would probably see the situation rectified in short order.

 

[lrsap]

First, let me say I agree with many that have said it is best to have them work on memorizing the Oath, Law, motto and slogan. It's all part of a WDL job in helping boys achieve AOL. And Lisabob's idea of making it a game and showing it to the CM and having him sign off on the AOL requirements.

 

But the question is not about AOL, it's the Webelos badge. I'm a bit put back by people that say "Let it go, they need to do it for AOL anyway."

 

To put this in a different perspective, imagine a Boy Scout has fulfilled all requirements for his 2nd Class rank. But applying the same logic, the SM says "That's good, but I need to see you tie a bowline before I approve this for COH. You'll need it for 1st Class anyway." If he can't, you have a unit leader withholding a scout's legitimately earned advancement in the spirit of "He'll need it later anyway." You now have this scout waiting for the next COH (whenever that is) with a Tenderfoot on his chest knowing he deserves more.

 

Achievement is done in progression. Otherwise, you might as well have Tigers working on Activity Badges. They'll need them later.

[Lisabob]

That might, indeed, rectify the specific problem of the CM expecting the boys to memorize the oath, law, motto, and slogan in 4th grade (rather than in 5th grade).

 

It would almost certainly also cause other problems, including the possible loss of the CM, a lot of uproar among the other adults involved, and potential disruption of the entire pack program if the CO gets seriously disgusted with adult antics.

 

THis is an issue of growing pains for a small pack with a bunch of new members, and it requires some fairly moderate adjustment in mind sets and approaches by the few long-time leaders in the group. Nuclear options will probably cause more problems than they solve. People need to pick their battles and their tactics, sometimes.

[The Blancmange]

Lisabob wrote:

 

It would almost certainly also cause other problems, including the possible loss of the CM . . .

I understand where you're coming from, but maybe that's what should happen. This CM is obviously someone who knows what the requirements are. This appears to be a case of someone who wants to run his own little feifdom his way. I doubt this is the only instance where his version of the program differs from the real program. Irsap's analogy to imposing First Class requirments on a Second Class Scout is spot on. If the CM's toes get stepped on by insisting that a boy who has properly earned a rank receive that rank, then I'm sorry, but that's too bad. Don't misunderstand what I'm saying here. I am not suggesting that it is not appropriate to encourage and help the boys memorize these things as early as possible. I do that. But I am not going to impose a requirement prematurely and hold a boy back.

[The Blancmange]

One more thought - who would you rather lose, a scouter who wants to make up the rules as he goes along, or a scout who plays by the rules? It's not too hard to imagine this converation taking place with little Johnny:

 

"Mom, this sucks. I did everything the book says but they won't give me my Webelos badge. Something about also doing the requirements for Arrow of Light. Even thought I've liked scouts so far, I think I'd rather play soccer. At least there, when I kick the ball in the net, they chalk it up on the scoreboard."

[Abel Magwitch]

The Blancmange writes:

 

 

"who would you rather lose, a scouter who wants to make up the rules as he goes along, or a scout who plays by the rules?"

 

 

Great Post!!!

 

 

[Lisabob]

Key point: you don't necessarily have to lose either. But some approaches will greatly increase the likelihood of losing both.

[Basementdweller]

Who would require them to stand in front of Pack and recite the promise, motto and Law?

 

 

We do.

 

It is called the opening and closing.

 

People it isn't that big a deal. As a boy Scout the SM is require to provide quality control. I would imagine that the CM should have a similar role,

 

[Scoutfish]

 

 

Touche' Basement...Touche'

Well, I guess our pack has a requirement too! WQe have been requiring all Cub Scouts and their leaders to recite the Promise, the Motto AND The Pledge of Allegiance too!....and I didn't even realize it even though I participate in it every time!

 

OUCH! Good call Basement, good call!

 

[lrsap]

ARRGGHHH!!! Skewered I am! This is what happens when you don't actually say what you mean, and I should know better.

 

Of course we all recite the Promise, Law, etc at our pack meetings. The question I was trying to ask (and doing an extremely poor job of doing so) was:

 

Is your CM the type that will take a Tiger, during his Bobcat ceremony, and have him stand before the audience and require him to recite all parts of the Bobcat badge from memory? Then, if he misses one, tells the boy, "Sorry, try a little harder, and maybe you'll earn it next month." Or something to that effect.

 

I apologize for the little thread hijack, but I was wanting a second bite of the apple to actually say what I meant the first time.

[jhankins]

The requirement is clearly laid out in the book, so I'm not sure where the CM is coming from. That being said, when I'm teaching the Oath and Law, I usually recommend they learn it first, as it's easier to explain the points when you know what they are, but it's not mandatory.

 

Some Cubmasters and parents need to remember that the pack committee sets the standards, and the CM enacts them.