CM overstepping his authority?

[CNYScouter]

Heres the bottom line on whats happening in the Pack.

 

1) Our CM is insisting that to earn the WEBELOS badge the Scouts need to know from memory the Scout Oath, Scout Law, Scout motto, and Scout slogan. The requirements for the WEBELOS badge say that they must explain what these mean. For the AOL it clearly says to know these from memory.

 

2) The CM is also insisting he will be the one that tests the WEBELOS if they know it or not and he going to decide when they will get the WEBELOS badge.

 

Its pretty clear that the first is adding to the requirements.

 

I know that the CM should be overseeing advancement but stepping in and testing the WEBELOS just doesnt seem right.

 

I am new to the Pack and have no idea if this has been done in the past or with just this group.

Our CM is not retesting the other Dens to see if they know the Cub Scout.

 

It is time to have a sit down with our CM and discuss this.

The CM says he is "by the book".

 

I have a good relationship with our CM and have been kind of placed in the middle of this.

 

I want to make sure before sitting down with our CM that I am on the right track.

 

Is this CM overstepping his authority?

 

[Snow_White]

Personally, I've not seen this before. Are you the Webelos den leader? If not, how does that person feel about it?

 

To me, it seems slightly out of line, but not something I'd go to the mat over, unless I was pretty unhappy about other things that the CM is doing.

 

At the moment, I don't have a reference to cite that he is wrong - if he is claiming that he is "by the book,", ask (in a nice way) for him to show you that book!

[Oak Tree]

When you say that you have been placed in the middle on this, who is on the other side? Are some parents complaining?

 

I agree with you that on point 1 he is increasing the requirements. Whether this is an issue worth fighting over, I don't know. Is this the one item that is going to prevent some Webelos Scouts from getting their Webelos badge? I'd try something like this: "Hey, Mr. CM, I've heard some grumbling that you are increasing the requirements for Webelos. Any suggestion on how I should respond to those complaints when I hear them?" See how he responds, and take the conversation from there. If he's truly "by the book", then he should be fine with doing what the book says, and all the book says is "explain".

 

As for his wanting to do the testing himself, I'd let that one go. Unless there's some sort of big scheduling problem, it shouldn't really matter who does the testing. Plus, if they don't actually have to recite the Oath and Law, then this problem would go away anyhow. I think it would be reasonable if he said that he wanted to test all the Arrow of Light candidates himself - kind of makes the issue feel a little more important. You are correct on the technical point - the den leader has the authority to sign the book.

[lrsap]

Your CM is way off track. I could go into a long explanation of why, but the easiest response to give your CM is to ask him to show you the book. When he can't, then take out the Webelos HB and leader's guide, and ask him to point it out to you.

 

 

[Scoutfish]

Well, technically, the book says explain. That's all they ahve to do.

 

But I see nothing wrong with them memorizing it either. They will have to one day anyways. But going technical, it sounds like he's overstepping his bounds.

[CNYScouter]

This is between the WEBELOS leader and the CM.

 

I am the Wolf Den leader for the Pack.

 

This is my 3rd son in Cubs and have served as a DL, ACM and CC in the past.

I am also on the District Committee and a UC (but not for this Pack)

And at one time or another have been on staff for teaching Cub leader training.

 

Outside our CM (60 years in Scouting this year) I have a lot of experiance.

 

So, when a question comes up I am usually the person in the Pack people come to.

 

I got caught up in this when the CM came to me saying that the WEBELOS havent finished the requirements for WEBELOS badge and would I back him up that they needed to do all the requirements before getting the badge.

At the time I didnt know the CM was talking about knowing the Oath and Law from memory and he was testing the scouts himself.

 

One problem is that the CM says he is a by the book guy but I think hes working off his own book.

I see a lot of this around here from our "old-timers".

 

Theres been some grumbling from the other leaders about replacing the CM.

But as an experienced leader I see a lot of the issues the Pack is going through are growing pains as the Pack went from 10-12 last year to around 35 this year.

 

In the past the CM did it all with little help (and with only 10 Cubs it wasnt a problem).

No real committee.

 

Were working on it and slowly getting there.

 

[rjscout]

I do see a problem with making them do the memorization for the Webelos badge.... it isn't required until the Arrow of Light. Yes, they do need to understand it enough to explain it, but not recite it from memory. That comes from repetition (good to have them say it at every Den meeting or activity). This can be disheartening for the boys.

 

I am the CM of our Pack, but work closely with the Webelos (my son is first year Webelos scout).

[Scoutfish]

Don't you just hate when it makes sense in your head, but you leave some out in print? LOL!

 

 

"Well, technically, the book says explain. That's all they ahve to do.

 

But I see nothing wrong with them memorizing it either. They will have to one day anyways. But going technical, it sounds like he's overstepping his bounds."

 

 

I left out part of what I meant to say. It should have read: " But I see nothing wrong with them memorizing it either. They will have to one day anyways. But I would not require it . That is adding to the requirements."

 

[Mafaking]

 

My advice; do nothing.

 

He is blowing smoke. He has no fire in his belly to deny otherwise deserving cubs their rank.

 

Let'm test the scouts if he wants. Give him as much rope as possible. Recommend that he reserve the meeting hall and dedicate his time to test these scouts individually.

[ScoutNut]

He may be a "by the book" kind of guy, but he is certainly not following any BSA book.

 

Shame on him for putting you in this position. From your post it sounds like he did so in a rather underhanded way without explaining his agenda (perhaps because he knew he was wrong?).

 

Requiring Webelos to memorize the Boy Scout Oath, Law, Motto, & Slogan for the Webelos rank award, is CLEARLY adding to the requirements, and against BSA policy.

 

Nowhere in any BSA publication does it state that "testing" is a part of any Cub Scout advancement program, including at the Webelos level. Cub Scouts are to do their individual best, and at the Webelos Cub Scout level that best is decided/approved by the Webelos den leader or a person assigned by the Webelos den leader.

 

Since the CM dragged you into the middle of this, sit down with him over a cuppa, and talk to him about the Webelos program, and what he is planning to do. Be prepared to show him the policies in BSA's "book".

 

Good Luck.

 

 

[lrsap]

CNYScouter,

 

Just curious, does he also require boys earning Bobcat to stand in front of a Pack meeting and recite everything in front of a crowded room of parents?

[Abel Magwitch]

A Scout should do the requirements, no more and no less. And no council, district, unit or individual has the authority to add to our subtract from advancement requirements.

 

Get with your commissioner and District Advancement Chair if all else fails.

[Twocubdad]

Since the CM is the one who asked you to get involved on his behalf, it is perfectly reasonable for you to go to him privately and say something along the lines of, "I've done what you asked and re-read the Webelos requirements. The way I read it the boys only need to explain the stuff not recite it. I think OUR best course would be if WE backed off and let the WDLs handle it. Seems like they have in under control."

 

Just becasuse the CM asked you to doesn't mean you have to hold hands and jump off this cliff with him. Hopefully he understand that it's your best friends who will tell you when your fly is unzipped.

[Scoutfish]

While researching an entirely different subject matter, I ran across this:

 

Unit leaders are not automatically approved to serve as merit badge counselors.

 

Question: Must individuals who are serving as a merit badge counselor register as a merit badge counselor with the Boy Scouts of America?

 

Answer: Yes, an Adult Application must be completed for each position in which the individual wants to serve. The application allows only one position per form. For instance, an individual who wants to serve only as a merit badge counselor will need to complete only one application.

 

However, a Scoutmaster or assistant Scoutmaster who wants to serve as a merit badge counselor must complete two applicationsone for the Scoutmaster position and one for the counselor position.

 

So what does this mean?

Could mean alot, or it could mean absolutely nothing.

 

A Webelos badge is not a Merit badge. But maybe the principle is the same.

 

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/GuideforMeritBadgeCounselors/FAQ.aspx

[Oak Tree]

Well, Scoutfish, it's not really the same. Webelos leaders do not have to register as anything else. I guess the principle that is the same is that the award should be approved by the person who is stated as having that authority.

 

For merit badges, it would be someone who is registered as a merit badge counselor, which is indeed a separate registration - although in our council those registrations are so poorly done as to make it almost worthless to actually spend the time filling out the paperwork.

 

For the Webelos badge, it's the Webelos den leader who has the authority.

 

For all those of you who say you should confront the Cubmaster with the rules, it seems to me like that's possibly creating a bigger conflict than necessary. If we had someone who was constantly quoting rules and second-guessing leaders, that person would become fairly unpopular. This is a pretty minor violation in the grand scheme - I'd hold my fire for the more serious issues.