rule question

[ASM59]

Basement...

 

I believe it is "Protecting God's Children" (a course for volunteers working with children) from (or at) the Catholic Church.

 

ASM59

[Scoutfish]

"Your Pack ran BB and Archery belt loops at your Pack campout even though it was against BSA"

Yep!

 

Admittidly, it was a stupid oversite on our part when it came to the difference between Council SANCTIONED pack campouts and Council HELD campouts.

 

We did not discover the error of our ways until about a 3 weeks ago. The campout was last fall( Sept 09) .

As a father and as a new (this year) ADL, I could not ask a Cub...after all that time has passed... to give up a beltloop.

 

BUt, you can bet I will not plan or intentionally do it again.

 

I will not hold a campout on the den level and work on pins, beltloops or what not and try to pass them off as "at home" completed electives.

 

I have no problem planning a pack campout ( with all forms filled out) and going.... even of only my den ended up going. I'd stil have the activities , and still pas out pins/beltloops/ badges to those that earned them. Why? Becaue it was a PACK campout!

 

A pack campout is a pack campout based on who can/was told/invited to go..not who showed up. A den campout is for a den only and not allowed.

 

The difference should be ( at least to BSA and CO) the intentions and what was planned from the start., not a mistake ..even a stupid "we should have known better mistake".

 

(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

[trainerlady]

"Protecting God's Children" is a required class similar to YPT that our CO a Catholic church and the local CYO make every volunteer take. The entire Archdiocese requires it. If you don't take the class you can't be a scout leader (BSA or GSUSA), youth league coach, lunch room parent, field tip chaperone, etc, etc, etc. Doesn't matter if you're a parish member or not. If you're near the kids you need the class. I know the company that offers it does the class all over the country. It might be named something else in other parts of te country.

 

I think the class is in response to all the priest abuse cases in the Catholic church. It rolled about the same time as the first settlements started appearing on the news.

[Scoutfish]

Scoutnut and Beardad;

Basically, it comes down to this: We screwed up. We erred. We messed up. WE goofed. We made a mistake.

 

So far, we were lucky because nobody handed us our behinds for it. In my mind ( and I speak for nobody else in my pack) I'm especially glad I did not have to ask any kids, or explain to any parents why the loops were no good or have to ask for them back.

 

The parents might not have been thrilled, but most of them would have understod.

 

The Cubs? They would have been devasatated!

That's not why I ,you, or anybody else does this.

 

So to recap: WE screwed up. The kids and parents didn't. We didn't plan on doing anything against the rules..it just turns out we did. We should have know better, but we didn't...BUT NOW WE DO!

 

WE will not do it again...at least not intentionally or being aware before hand!(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

[bear dad]

Scoutfish,

No need to say you are sorry to me.I don't think I even responded to any thing you posted? I was even asking about merits and belt loops.

I still feel like this rule is vague though,

 

These are pack-organized overnight events involving more than one family from a single pack, focused on age-appropriate Cub Scout activities and conducted at council-approved locations

 

So by this rule is says more than 1 family from a pack, does not say if has to be different dens. So if we plan for a pack campout and only group of parents/ boys from 1 den show up, is this still a pack camp out?

 

Thats all I wanted to know, the post went south from there. thanks

[ScoutNut]

Bear Dad, the policy is clear. It only gets muddled if you are trying to get around the rule.

 

To have a PACK campout you need a BALOO trained person to plan it, from the get go, as a campout for the ENTIRE PACK. It needs to be planned, promoted, and run, by the BALOO trained leader, with the help and support of ALL of the rest of the Pack's leadership, as a camping overnighter for the ENTIRE PACK. The BALOO trained leader needs to have age appropriate activities planned for ALL of the youth that will be attending.

 

If your PACK campout is planned, and run that way, it IS a PACK campout. It does not matter if only the families from a single den, or even just the BALOO leader's family, show up.

 

However, in my experience, if a campout is truly promoted to the entire Pack, and everything is done to encourage the entire Pack to attend, you will NOT have only families from JUST one den attend.

 

 

Scoutfish - I really don't know if you go in circles on purpose. The issue with your posts has NOTHING AT ALL to do with what constitutes a Pack vs den campout.

 

The issue is that you keep stating that if a den goes on a den only camping trip that the Cub Scouts can not/should not get credit for anything that they do while on the trip.

 

That is a load of bunk.

 

That is NOT supported by ANY BSA literature, of any kind.

 

A Cub Scout gets credit for EVERYTHING he does.

 

[rjscout]

I am surprised that you were able to get BB & Archery beltloops for the boys from a non-Council shooting event. Our Coucil scout shop requires a certificate from the event to be able to purchase the shooting beltloops. I think part of the restriction is to make sure that the shooting event has certified shooting instructors leading the event. Some camps allow a Pack to rent the shooting facilities for Packs to use. We have some Archery and BB instructors (rangemasters) in our Pack to help us run our event without having to worry about one being available.

 

Check your Council to see when you can attend the Shooting Sports training (separate training for BB and Archery).

 

[Snow_White]

Once again, ditto what ScoutNut said...

 

rjscout, our local Scout Shop does not require any paperwork or certification to purchase these belt loops or pins. Around here, they are typically earned either a district Cub Scout Day Camp or the council's resident camp. From my conversations with the staff there, they seem to be relying on the fact that the requirements are not published to be a general deterrent to running these activities elsewhere. (Along with the expectation that leaders know what the rules are about this are, and can be trusted to follow them.)

[bear dad]

To Scoutnut and to all that responded, thanks for the help.

[infoscouter]

Well - in my council we ARE able to go pack camping at a council facility (not as part of a day camp or resident camp) and do shooting sports. Our council interprets the phrase in the Guide to Safe Scouting "council activities where there are properly trained supervisors and all standards for BSA shooting sports are enforced", as including shooting at a council facility with a council trained adult range supervisor.

 

As a National Archery Association Level 1 Instructor, I train pack level volunteers to conduct archery shooting events _at council camps_ for their pack, district or the council. My NRA trained counterparts do the same for BB-guns.

 

Mine is not the only council which interprets the shooting sports guidelines in this fashion. We are in the minority, but as one of the five largest councils in the country, we get a lot of kids shooting this way.

[Scoutfish]

bear dad, I know you didn't have an issue with it, just clarifyingm because I don't want you to make a mistake .

 

 

Scoutnut; Circles? You called me out on the BB gfun thing. I only answered you. If it's a circle, you started it, not me - I only responded.

As far as den Vs pack...As I said in other posts, A campout on the den level is not allowed,sncationed or will a certificate of liability be written. Per BSA G2SS.

A den itseklf can not have a campout. Not my rule, BSA's rule!

 

As far as merit badges, pins and what not, it was explained to us by our Council that since you have an illegal campout ( or whatever you want to call it) all the activities are in question and void. Again, not my rule.

 

I'd prefer to be able to camp on a Den level.

 

 

Again, would I take the pins? NO! I said so at least twice, But I'd hate Distric or council to catch wind of it haoppeneing...especially if they thougyt it was pre planned knowing it was not allowed. Again,I said that too.

 

I may only have two years into this scouting thing, but I can't imagine Council or District or even the CO for that matter will just ignore it. Otherwise, what would they do to prevent further instances from repeating?

[Scoutfish]

Incidentally, I do not know how the aquisition of badges, beltloops, pins, aroow points , etc are specifically handled.

 

All the leaders have until the Weds. before the Monday night pack meet to turn in all advancements and such to the pack registrar. I can only assume that she is the one who gets the badges, belt loops, etc and what not. Maybe not, maybe the individual leaders go. Maybe it's the cubmaster. I do know that leaders show up 15 mins earlir than normal on pack nights to straighten out paperwork and to get the badges.

 

THis process does not involve me, so I do not know what,if any paperwork is involved at the scout shop.My only involvement would be to assist my den leader if need be. So far, it hasn't been needed.

 

Last year, I was nothing more than a "more active than most" parent..Any rules, laws and such about what could be handled at what type of event were outside my knowledge, and quite frankly, really weren't my concern!

As a parent, it was my job to work with my son, and to trust that my pack knew what they were doing..........Unless anybody thinks that each and every parent should individually question every single thing the pack, it's leaders and committee do?

 

But then there would be no time for the scouts.....just answers!

 

[bear dad]

Scoutfish,

Thanks, no problems, happy scouting to you!

[John-in-KC]

rjscout,

 

The idea on shooting sports for Cubs is really simple: The safety factors, the liability risks to the Council are such that National wants Councils to control the experience end to end.

 

By my read of G2SS, the Council has plenty of latitude to organize Cub events ... to include rental of the Council camp with field sports included. The Council then has to provide the trained staff, the weaponry, and the ammunition. Day and Resident camps are mention, but Family Camping on council property is also mentioned. So a unit can camp at a Council property and can request to have a range.

 

Does that make sense?

[Basementdweller]

Trainer lady......

 

In reading what was written, It sounded very unscout like and I was curious. It is a training course provided by the Catholic church called Protecting Gods Children. I understand it now.

 

Scoutfish......

 

Despite the rules many packs Shoot bb guns and archery outside of District and council events. and with out a trained range master. oh my.

 

Our district is so pathetic the Packs had to provide those activities to deliver the promised program. Are they wrong or evil???? There is a pack in a neighboring town that has match grade daisy bb guns, they are beautiful, far superior to the junk we shoot with at the council camp. Yes the pack bought them, yes they own them, yes they maintain them.

 

Anyone can walk in and buy patches and belt loops, if your local shop won't sell them to you buy them from the scout shop on line. Nobody actually tracks belt loops.

 

In reading your posts, you understand the differences between urban/suburban and country scouting. there is a huge difference in program delivery.