rule question

[bear dad]

Hi have a question hopefully someone can help clear this up for me. I would like to take me den(bears) camping as boys have asked to go. It would be probably just ovenight (leave sat, back sunday). here is where I am having a issue to the rules I have inclosed a link to following

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss03.aspx

 

According to this Bear dens can not den camp at top, but later it talks about family overnighters

as more than 1 family per pack.

I have talked to other CM's and they have told me they never had a problem, with attaining Tour permits. had a person a district it would be okay,said to check with Safe Scouting Guidelines thats where I get confused?

 

Let me say this first YES someone will Baloo Trained, and will follow Youth protection, only parent guardian allowed to sleep in same tent, all that will be applied, just not shure how to interpet this rule, maybe because I am new??

 

What I don't get is how is a boy thats is active that wants to go and family also, is told no and this make scouting less appealing to stay involved in for the boy and family as well? Thanks

[bear dad]

Got a answer to my question, this is allowed for pack overnighters as long as all proper training/youth protection is in place. This from a District personal thanks

[ScoutNut]

From the link YOU posted - Per BSA Guide to Safe Scouting - in BOLD print -

 

"Overnight camping by Tiger, Wolf, and Bear Cub Scout dens as dens is not approved and certificates of liability insurance will not be provided by the Boy Scouts of America."

 

It does not matter if you include every family member of every boy in your den living in the surrounding 4 states, if you take just your Bear den on a camping trip, you are camping as a DEN - NOT as a PACK, and DEN camping is NOT ALLOWED BY BSA except by Webelos.

 

Your Bear den can camp as part of a PACK campout, at a Council organized Family camp, and at a Council Resident Camp.

 

I am VERY suprised your Pack's BALOO trained person did not know this.

[Scoutfish]

Your den can still camp out - but only on the pack level with other dens from your pack, but cannot offer certain classes / merit badge electives/ belt loops & pins .

 

For example: BB gun shooting. That has to be at an approved council/ district campout.

 

But you still have to get a tour permit/ liability certificate.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

[trainerlady]

In my pack it has always been only my den that camps. The trip is open to everyone and everyone is highly encourages to come. But the other dens are too "prissy" to camp. Camping to most of the famlies is a Motel 6.

 

The trips are billed as pack family camps and tour permitted that way. The whole pack was invited to go but chose not to go. So we go and have fun. Occassionally we have a family from another den go but not often. We have BALOO, weather hazards and CPR/first aid trained people and all parents have YPT along with PRotecting Gods Children from the Catholic chuch. Every boy needs his own adult, some trips we have more adults than kids.

 

Our pack committee feels that those that want to go should get to go. To them as long as it has been offered to the entire pack and they chose not to go then there's nothing they can d about it. You can't force people to camp, but you shouldn't stop them from a great opportunity either.

 

All my den members are taking about going on to BS. In the past years the non-camping dens have had a non-exisitent transition to BS. One kid out of 14 over 3 years. Maybe camping is a key to moving up.

 

Ask the rest of the pack, take whoever wants to go with you and have a great time. If no one else wants to you guys go and have fun. Make sue to take lots of pictures and video to share with the rest of the pack. Maybe once they see how much fun it is they'll go nect time.

[Scoutfish]

TrainerLady, the difference is in the words you use: "In my pack it has always been only my den that camps. The trip is open to everyone and everyone is highly encourages to come. "

 

Our pack family camps too. It is a FAMILY trip. If only my den showed up on that FAMILY campout, it is still a FAMILY campout.

If only one den doesn't go, it doesn't me we excluded them,it means they made the choice.

 

The key is in the event. If a whole pack is invited and the don't go...that's their loss. But if the den only plans it..... it's a no no!

 

BUT....If all the parents of a particular den, just happen to decide to go camping...well. it's in the finer details. They can go, but it can't be recorded as a den campout nor can anybody get ant awards, pins, or loops or anything of that nature!

 

 

Again, it's all about wording and asking. PLan a pack campout. Tell the whole pack. You don't have to twist their arms to get them to go. And if they don't...they just missed out on a fun pack oppertunity.

 

But that's their problem and not yours!

 

 

On a side note... I commend both of you for not letting an entire pack suck the life and fun out of what your den could be doing!

[bear dad]

Thanks,

Trainerlady, this what I heard from other people, you can put it out like that if no ones shows up, thats on them. I do have a couple of tigers that would like to go. So if we have a couple of different dens show up, does that make it a Family Camp?

I really don't see the big deal in all this, understand it is rules, but to tell a boy he can't camp because no other dens wants to is not right.

[Twocubdad]

This is about planning and authorization. What makes it a pack campout and not just a den campout is that the pack leadership is involved and approves of the campout, even if only one den ultimately attends. Note that a committee member's signature is required on the tour permit.

 

Let's face it, there is a lot of wiggle room in this regulation. There is no written criteria for what constitutes a pack campout. So what's to prevent a pack with four dens from having four separate "pack campouts"? Nothing, although I would want to have a discussion about dancing around rules rather they following them. But if the pack leadership is involved in the planning, satisfies itself that all BSA policies are being followed, and signs off on the tour permit, in my opinion you have complied with the policy.

 

Scoutfish,

 

Why are they precluded from earning awards, pins or belt loops? Can you cite a policy for that?(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

[Scoutfish]

Twocubdad,

 

Only CERTAIN pins,loops, and badges.

 

We had a BB Gun and Archery class set up at our Fall pack family campout.

 

I helped with BB Guns. Went through the history of the BB Gun and taught safety procedures, set up safety perimiters and used Daisy Red Rider single pump "spring/air" rifles (read least powerful) air rifles.

 

 

Turns out that you cannot teach that ( meaning BB gun & Archery) stuff at family campouts/ pack campouts.

 

That is not to say you cannot teach other pin/loop/ badge classes on the pack/family level - just not BB gun or archery.

 

Incidentally, we found out several months after the fact. We did not, nor will we take the loops back as we are not going to puinish the kids for our lack of following procedure

But at our pack spring campout.... we will teach something else.

 

Maybe hatchet throwing! LOL! JUst kidding!(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

[ScoutNut]

Actually, what you stated was - "If all the parents of a particular den, just happen to decide to go camping...well. it's in the finer details. They can go, but it can't be recorded as a den campout nor can anybody get ant awards, pins, or loops or anything of that nature!"

 

Cub Scout activities are allowed, and indeed currently encouraged, to be done at home with the family. They can also be completed in the community, or school.

 

A Cub gets credit for what he does, no matter where, when, or with who, he does it.

 

As for your doing BB and Archery at a Pack Campout, I am VERY suprised that the BALOO trained leader who planned, and ran the Pack overnighter had no knowledge that this was against BSA rules. It is VERY EXPLICITLY spelled out in a number of places, including the Guide to Safe Scouting. You can't even generally get the requirements for these belt loops. They are not included in the A&S Program Guide and it is explained in there WHY they are not included. Even the non-scout online places that give the requirements for the loops/pins put on the page a very visable disclaimer.

 

 

[Basementdweller]

Funny at our scout camp they throw tomahawks.

 

Like twocubs said, why would they not be allowed to work on scout advancements while camping with the family. Just because families decide to go camping the need to put the instruction of their scout on hold.

 

Please don't tell me "Cause it isn't fair".

 

hmmmm

[Scoutfish]

Actually, what Isaid was:

 

 

"The key is in the event. If a whole pack is invited and they don't go...that's their loss. But if the den only plans it..... it's a no no!

 

BUT....If all the parents of a particular den, just happen to decide to go camping...well. it's in the finer details. They can go, but it can't be recorded as a den campout nor can anybody get any awards, pins, or loops or anything of that nature! "

 

According to G2SS and BSA - you can not hold a campout on the den level. If you do, it's not a BSA council.district or sanctioned event.

 

But if you do it on the family level, it's not a den event anyways. I'm just saying, you go camping as a den. Somebody at district or council hears about it.They get upset and bring it to the attention of the COR or CO . Somebody says something inflammatory.Then sombody else gets mad! You might end up not camping any where any more except as a family.

And you might have somebody questioning every beltloop, pin, badge or award given out from then on too.

 

Personally, I wish den events were allowed. I think it would be more of a tight knit, "we are a group" type of event. Brings everybody closer and shows them the value of working together a bit better.

It would be cheaper and you'd probably have more options to find campsites as you are looking for space to handle between 8 to maybe 15 families instead of the 150 to 200 of the pack.

 

Old farmer Brown might allow 12 families to camp in his back pasture by the lake, but hold reservatuions about 150 families camping in the same spot.

(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

[ScoutNut]

Your Pack ran BB and Archery belt loops at your Pack campout even though it was against BSA rules, and yet they still awarded the Scouts the belt loops. Why? Because they had earned them and it was not the Scouts fault the Pack did not follow BSA rules.

 

So why shouldn't a Scout get recognition for work done at a den event, even if that den event is against BSA rules?

 

A Scout gets credit for the work he does - PERIOD. It is not his fault if the adults around him are on their own adgenda.

 

However - worst case - it is possible, if a unit makes a point of consistantly not following BSA's rules, guidelines, and program, that the Charter Organization might decide a change in leadership is called for. One of the requirements to be a CO is to follow BSA rules, regs, and program, so it is also possible for a CO to have their charter pulled by their Council.

 

 

 

 

 

[Snow_White]

Ditto to what ScoutNut said. Advancement issues aside...

 

Our pack typically has a turnout of between 20 and 30 families at family camping events. I'm not sure I'd even want to see a pack campout with close to 200 families!

[Basementdweller]

Trainerlady

 

I am curious what this means "PRotecting Gods Children from the Catholic chuch" I am sure there is a story and reason.