Cub Scouts 2010

[hotmamatigger]

I've been trying to get more information on CS2010 since I heard about it and still the information is vague at best. "No more themes" and "Den based advancement" is all I'm seeing. As a Tiger Den Leader, I've been following Program Helps since the beginning. My boys all got their Bobacat and Immediate Recognition Emblem after the first month and they all got their Tiger badge in February. I don't see how people following the Program Helps can't do the same. Sure, I switched out some crafts or games here and there or blended Den Meetings when we had a holiday that might make 2 Den Meetings a month hard, but we did it. And it wasn't difficult. I listed the month, meeting dates, theme, and Go See It then had each Tiger/Adult Partner team sign up for one and they did everything for that month!

 

Which brings me to my little vent about the problem. I didn't even know about Program Helps until I did Leader Specific Training, a full month after we were recruited and I registered as Den Leader. Three months later, I was at a Pack event talking to one of my Tiger parents and I pulled out Program Helps to reference something. The Wolf Den Leader was nearby and came over asking about the book. Next thing I know I'm *introducing* Program Helps to not just the Wolf Den Leader but the Bear Den Leader too! Turns out the Cubmaster never told them about it, they never heard about it in training, and they had been struggling to come up with Den activities for YEARS! So National can make all the changes to the program that they want, but if it doesn't get communicated to the Den Leaders, it's not going to matter. I keep running into this problem with other units (I'm also the Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner). The flow of information from one "generation" of leaders to the next is almost non-existent. Until that changes, it's not going to matter how they tweak the program, there will still be great Den Leaders who advance their boys and make the program fun and there will be not-so-great Den Leaders who just squeak by on their own.

 

 

[TigerLisa]

Thank you, Scoutnut, for the update and the link!

[ScoutNut]

>>"there will still be great Den Leaders who advance their boys and make the program fun and there will be not-so-great Den Leaders who just squeak by on their own."

[RickChappell]

I do think it's interesting that in the FAQs for Cub Scouts 2010, they specifically mention the councils involved in the pilot can't show an increase in retention because the pilot sets were too small.

 

What I can't understand is this concept that advancement shouldn't happen in the den. That has never been the Scoutng program. Advancement has always been a mix of den and home work. During the Top Hands video, the speaker comments thatadvancement was left to the parents and the boys glued cotton balls on a plate. If that was the types of programs he was familiar with, then no wonder they lose boys. The Program Helps always have requirement numbers associated with the activities so that leaders could plan advancement. It sounds like a lot of revisionist history to justify the changes.

 

In my 25+ years of being a Scouting leader, I've never seen a Den meeting where there wasn't some advancement. And after serving as a District Training Chair several times, we've always trained leaders to do advancement in the den. It wasn't "Fast Tracks", it was Cub Scouting.

 

They also skirt the issue of flawed methodolgy in their pilot. Having equally trained leaders in the pilot and non-pilot dens would have made more sense. Any trained leader is going to d better than they did before trained.

 

The key changes I see in Cub Scouting 2010 - rather than themes, we use the Program Core Values. I can just imagine an 8 year old's eyes light up with excitement when he hears this month's theme is "Perseverance" or "Cooperation." RBP used to call Scouting "Learning wrapped in a game." Now it sounds like learning wrapped up in learning.

 

The other change is the detailed pre-programmed activity. Looking at the demo Den and Pack Meeting Resource Guide takes away all the planning. We are basically providing all packs with the same annual program plan. It becomes sort of a Cub Scouts Lite - leaders don't think, just do this. You can have flexibility by changing the field trip if your community doesn't have the resources."

 

Training will go online - that is great for busy folks. I have to wonder, though, if we aren't exchanging the quality of training for the convenience?

 

Other Overview points that are disingenous-

-Den meetings are more organized with more time for fun - ?? In whose den? This new program doesn't do anything more than what we've always done except predefine it.

-Den meetings are more fun and easier to run. - Really? Based on what?

-Boys are happier - How?

-The pack operates more effectivelyall dens follow the same plan. - Pack effetiveness is dependent on the pack leadership, ot the program

-More opportunities for recognition and parental involvement - Again, how? We're not adding additional awards - the handbooks are supposedly going through only minor rewrites, and it really seems like we're looking for less parental involvement

 

I have to admit that I was excited when I initially heard about the changes, but I can't see this as having much real effect. I'd love to be wrong, but it seems to me like it's addressing cosmetic issues.

[MNBob]

"What I can't understand is this concept that advancement shouldn't happen in the den. That has never been the Scoutng program."It doesn't help when you find conflicting information online. Regardless our Pack will still choose to do advancement activities in den meetings.

http://usscouts.org/factfiction/cubscouts.asp

 

Statement

The Den Leader should set aside time in meetings to work with boys who arent advancing along with the rest.

 

Fact or Fiction

Fiction

 

Comments

For both Wolf and Bear, virtually all achievements are designed to be done at home, between the Cub Scout and a parent or guardian. Work toward ranks and arrow points, except when specifically worded (e.g., With your den/pack) is to be done at home and not in Den or Pack meetings.

 

[ScoutNut]

The Cub Scout program, as it now stands, was built around the family. Family Understanding is one of the purposes of Cub Scouting, and Family Involvement is one of it's methods.

 

As stated in many BSA sources (USScouts, while very good is not BSA), most of the work on requirements should be done at home with the family.

 

From the BSA National Web site -

 

>>"The advancement plan is designed for parents to use to create a learning environment in their home. With the Cub Scout handbooks as a resource, parents and boys work together to do the achievements required for each badge. The advancement plan provides fun for the boys, gives them a sense of personal achievement as they earn badges, and strengthens family understanding as adult family members work with boys on advancement projects.

 

WHILE CUB SCOUTS WILL LEARN SKILLS AND BEGIN WORK ON PROJECTS IN THEIR WEEKLY DEN MEETINGS, the parent remains at the center of the advancement program. As each task is done or each skill is demonstrated, the parent signs the Cub Scout's handbook to record its completion. And when the boy has completed all the requirements to earn an award, the parent presents that award at the next monthly pack meeting.">"In a pilot study of 21 dens in Bay-Lakes Council using this program, the retention rate of Cub Scouts went from 64% to 85%. In packs where some of the dens were using the program and other dens were not, the retention increased significantly for those using the program and did not increase for those not using the program.">"Those who have used this program have found that family participation increases because so many of the achievements and electives in the handbooks call for family participation."

[MNBob]

ScoutNut: I think you are being a little too pessimistic. I don't actually disagree with much of what you said but I do think it assumes a good and dedicated leader. Another quote from the same page that you are quoting (http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/CubScouts/Parents/role.aspx):It's important to remember that the adult leaders of your son's den and pack are volunteers who give their own time to provide a quality program for your son. While they have been carefully selected and extensively trained for their roles, there are always times when they could use help from parents in the pack."Carefullly selected and extensively trained" makes me chuckle. We ask for volunteers and if their application passes the background check they are accepted. We then ask them to go to training. If some choose not to get training there is no recourse other than to find another leader but if no other parent is interested you stick with what you can get.

 

What I'm hoping is that Cub Scouts 2010 provides a workable program that makes it easier for new parents to become leaders without feeling completely lost. The current "program helps" literature assumes weekly meetings. In our pack that's just not realistic. Some of the dens are only meeting once per month despite requests that all dens meet at least twice per month. At least the new program allows us to show leaders what BSA expects while at the same time giving them a realistic schedule to follow.(This message has been edited by MNBob)

[bbender]

"Cub Scouts 2010 provides a workable program that makes it easier for new parents to become leaders without feeling completely lost" ===> Bingo! That's the goal and hope.

 

Of course, units with very deep leadership (including those who stay beyond their son's Cub Scouting tenure) have done fine under existing resources, and will continue to do fine under the new program. But many many parents, faced with the multiple resources for Den Meetings, have a hard time figuring out how to make the program happen -- a simpler Den Meeting program will make this easier for those new leaders to "get it", stick with it, and become excellent leaders. Making it easier (and fun) for new leaders is what we aimed for in our Pack and the neck of the woods I train in by rolling out the alternate version of Fast Tracks (see earlier thread on Fun 'n' Flexible Fast Tracks, and that's what the program can be: easier for new leaders, and resources galore can and will continue to be available for those who want to bring the fun in different ways.

 

I should note that while we do advancement in Den Meetings, our Pack takes a very dim view of Parents who don't participate, and not just at home: we have a policy called "Every Parent Leads" (see http://atlanta631.mypack.us/aboutus and http://atlanta631.mypack.us/system/files/EveryParentLeads.DOC), requiring every parent to be an akela, step up to help run at least 2 Den Meetings, and serve in a Pack Admin role if you're not already a leader.

[infoscouter]

""Carefullly selected and extensively trained" makes me chuckle. We ask for volunteers and if their application passes the background check they are accepted. We then ask them to go to training. If some choose not to get training there is no recourse other than to find another leader but if no other parent is interested you stick with what you can get."

 

Really? You settle for that? Our leaders are selected using the BSA leader selection process and required to go to training. Some of our dens use a FastTracks type of approach, but most use Program Helps. We have 85+% retention and for the last 10 years have crossed over more than 90% of our Webelos to Boy Scouting.

 

IMO, part of the problem with retention and program quality lies in the fact that too many units **do not follow** the selection process as laid out by the BSA, and let leaders choose whether or not they will go to training.

[MNBob]

Yes, we settle for that. Do I like to? No. First, can you please direct me to the "BSA leader selection process" as I have no idea what that is. If it involved the Charter Org that might explain why as our Pack pretty much operates independent of the CO. We have a COR to sign the papers but otherwise there is no other involvement.

 

In the short time I've been on this forum I'm often surprised how quickly others become critical of people. Perhaps our Pack is in the minority and I'm glad others do not apparently experience any difficulty in finding volunteers. I just haven't been told what to do if no one will volunteer to be a den leader. So if that makes me a bad CC because I accept those who are interested and then worry later if they'll actually go to training, I guess I'm a bad CC.

[bbender]

Not at all, MNBob: sounds like you're a great CC. You're working hard to get volunteers, and truth be told, getting volunteers is harder these days. I venture that the typical unit finds that getting volunteers is usually a matter of putting all of the parents in the room to see who blinks first when told that "if there's no Den Leader, there's no Den". That's one of the reasons we insist on our "Every Parent Leads", so that poor volunteer doesn't end up stuck with no help.

 

And agreed on the propensity for criticism as well: I mean, I heard somewhere that "A Scout is Kind", right?

[RickChappell]

It's not just a choice of finding the perfect person or settling for anyone who can't say no. The program is so not difficult. The folks who are challenged are generally those who don't get trained. The "extensive" training is pretty minimal. About 5 hours plus going to Roundtables each month has an amazing impact. Then, of course, there is the commissioner who can provide resources for the brand new leader.

It seems to me the changes requiring training to be a leader that are being piloted now will have a stronger impact than this Cub Scouts Lite, I mean Cub Scouts 2010.

[ScoutNut]

"Selecting Cub Scout Leadership" #510-500, can be found at your local Council Scout Shop or online at the BSA National Web site -

 

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/510-500.pdf

 

Basically, what it says is that a list is put together of people who best meet the criteria needed in the person who will be doing a specific job. These people are then ranked from 1 to ##, with 1 being the person that is considered the BEST candidate for the job. The candidates are then approached FACE-TO-FACE, starting with #1, with all info about the job, and every effort is made to convince him/her to serve the Pack in the position needed. If the first candidate declines, you go on down the list until one of the candidates accepts.

 

This is the method I have used for the last 10+ years, and it works. You end up with someone you WANT as a leader instead of any warm body who might not be really interested in doing the job.

 

As far as training goes, I would suggest that you start getting your leaders to training. Mandatory training IS COMING in the next 2 years. When that happens, if your leaders are not trained, your unit could very well loose their Charter.

 

 

[Scoutfish]

Okay, despite that some of the later posts indication that advancement would be held outside the den meetings, I am going with the original post that states that MORE advancements and requirements would be handles at den meetings.

 

This is what I have observedthis year:

 

My Brother in law, is pretty much a total slacker. Period! He has complained about Pine Wood Derby because..gasp... he had to help his Wold son cut the car out. He could not understand why BSA, our pack, or his son'sden leader would expect a 8 year old to use a table saw, chop saw, and a drill press! No, I don't know what kind of car he was going to build that would need all that equipment!

 

After one of out pack meetings, my BIL pretty much told me he was upset his son didn't specifically get called up for an award.

 

I asked him what award was it he thought his son should get.

 

The answer: " I don't know."

 

I asked what his son was working on

 

"I don't know."

 

What has his den done lately?

 

"I don't know."

 

So I asked why did he think his son should be "specifically" called up to get an award.

 

" Because he's been doing it long enough."

 

So here it is: A parent takes his son to den meetings twice a month, sometimes 3 times, goes to 1 pack meeting each month and occasionally goeson an pouting to a fire dept or police dept.

 

AND HE HAS NO IDEA WHAT HIS SON OR SON'S DEN IS DOING?

 

He has no idea what acheivements his son has completed or is currently in?

 

Basically put, come B&G, his son has not even earned his Bobcat Badge.

 

Why> Because dad does not know what that is.

 

UI talked with the Den leader who is pretty frustrated with dad. He has told dad time and time again what needs to be done. Dad says "That's why he's here!"

 

The den leader has tried to work with the boy, but the boy thinks "Me and dad are gonna work on that together." and doesn't want to do it with the DL..

 

So what do you do?

[MNBob]

Thanks for posting the link. As I suspected its intended for the CO which is why I've probably never seen it and why we've never done something like this. But the basic idea of creating a list and then asking each person in turn down the list is a decent idea as opposed to asking for volunteers. Last fall my call for volunteers resulted in one response. She became the Assistant Cubmaster and is now the Cubmaster. But I'll need help from the other den leaders who obviously know their parents better than I do. But they don't always seem willing to help me and I struggle with what I can do to improve the situation.

 

Right now we're in a transition period where a few leaders are crossing over. I'm closer to those leaders because they were all parents in my den (I was both CC and WDL this year). I've told all leaders next year that direct contact leaders will have to be trained or else we will not be able to re-charter in 2011. We just had our B&G and cross over on March 7. Next Sunday we have a leadership meeting where I hope to have everyone set expectations.

 

As I've mentioned previously some of the dens are only meeting once per month. With Cub Scouts 2010 I can show them a meeting schedule of two times per month. The program is essentially how my den operated (without our realizing that Fast Tracks existed). We had 12 boys earn Arrow of Light and 12 cross over (one of them moved to Belgium in Jan and is joining a Troop there!). So it worked and that's why I'm excited for Cub Scouts 2010.