Please tell me this is not how it is supposed to be!

[Jon M]

Hello! I am new to the forum and new to Scouting (as a parent, anyway). My son recently joined the Wolf/Bear Den within the local pack and was initially very excited to do so.

 

As a youth I spent many years in scouting and have nothing but grand memories and oftentimes hilarious stories to tell when asked about my experiences as a scout (1980's). Naturally my son expected something at least remotely similar to what I had experienced and consequently had described to him.

 

Unfortunately the first Den meeting was an eye-opener for both me and my son. The Den Leader did not have any component of a uniform on at all and to make matters worse was wearing blue-jeans with holes in both knees. I am not sure exactly how long that she has been the DL but this is at least her 2nd year. When asked for the Den number she said that she didn't know and that it really didn't matter anyway! When asked about uniforms she said that they really don't worry about that sort of thing and most of the boys don't wear them. She went on to explain that the only thing they might need a uniform for would be if they won the pinewood derby at the pack level and moved on to competition in the district.

 

The Den meetings are disorganized, the DL usually arrives late and without materials, and because she did not bring a ball actually wanted to substitute a rock for the ball toss in the Wolf Cub "Feats of Skill" requirement!!! Generally the den meetings consist of the boys running wildly without purpose or adult direction in the gym.

 

The pack meetings aren't any better. This month the CM didn't even wear a uniform and he is the Cub Scout Trainer for the District and has been CM for at least 10 years! Sure, they begin with color guard, announcements, and then off to the gym for more running and yelling. No theme; no continuity; no organization.

 

I know that it can be easier to criticize than it can be to help so I am making an effort to assist and have been in contact with the Cubmaster (who seems just as disorganized as the DL). The CM has told me to be patient that sometimes things are slow to get started. I have been reading everything that I can about den meetings, pack meetings,have submitted an Adult App for Membership, have completed "Fast Start" for Wolf/Bear DL and for CM, Youth Protection Training, and am registerd for "The Next Step" training hosted by the council at the beginning of next month.

 

In addition I have been in email contact with the District Executive. I have alluded to some of the shortcomings however I have yet to speak plainly about my discontent.

 

Since we are working through the requirements at home my son earned "Bobcat" and is excited and proud but at the same time he is still dissapointed and put off by the chaos. He is quickly losing interest in scouting, and I am irritated, upset, frustrated . . . .

 

My initial questions (although I am sure to have others) are these: Is this typical? Is this what scouting has become? Should I try and help this pack or am I setting myself up for continued frustration (is the whole district this way)? Would it be best to write this pack off and move on to another?

 

 

Obviously these questions cannot be answered definitively however any constructive comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

[gcnphkr]

No, it is not typical.

 

Yes, you are setting yourself up for continued frustration if you try to change it.

 

Yes, you should consider finding a different pack. The DE can at least tell you about other units, although may not know which ones you would like. Go to Roundtable and see which packs have multiple members present. Find a Wolf (Bear if you son is older) DL and arrange a visit. If the pack is combining Wolf and Bears neither will be served well.

[Lisabob]

Hello and welcome. I think that you will find a lot of good information in this forum.

 

I do not think what you are describing is typical. It is certainly not what cub scouts ought to be like.

 

The matter of what to do about it is tricky. Do you have other options (are there any other, established packs in the area)? Why did you choose to sign up with this pack to begin with? Are there other dens that you could switch to, within this pack (would a better den leader make enough difference for you)?

 

How much of your time and effort do you want to put into this? As someone who has worked with a very small group of folks to rebuild a pack, I can tell you it is a lot of work, made much harder if there are some "old guard" types who don't want to make changes. On the other hand, it takes a surprisingly small amount of time to turn a willing pack from "dreadful" to "dynamic." But still a lot of work.

 

What is the pack leadership like? Is there a Cub Master? (I sure hope so but you never know.) Are there assistant CM's? Who is on the committee? Are these people only involved because no one else would do it? Would they welcome you? Or resent you? Did I already ask how much time you have for this? If you're thinking about getting a lot more involved, have you talked this over with the rest of your family (significant other, especially)? This can be all-consuming if you let it, and some families wouldn't be able to support that.

 

Who is the pack's sponsor (Charter Organization)? Are they involved with the pack or are they out to lunch? What is your relationship to the sponsoring group?

 

The quick answer is, find a better pack. THat might be the right answer for you if you just want your son to have a good experience, and/or you don't have a personal stake in keeping this pack from dying, and/or you don't have the time, inclination, skills, or support to stay and help improve things.

 

I hope you'll stick around for a bit and let us know what you decide to do. And good scouting to you.

 

 

[jamist649]

How large is this Pack? How old is it? What do the other parents think about it? Have you talked to the other parents in the Den/Pack?

 

This sounds like a hot mess. Before you leave, however, I'd talk to 2nd, 3rd or more year Scout parents and see what they say. If it, in fact, does start this way every season BUT develop into something good it would be a shame to leave.

 

We don't use "themes" in my Pack (CM) either...they just don't seem to "fit" with my folks. BUT we do have an agenda that we follow (albeit loosely sometimes) and we always have planned activities. Horseplay is kept to a minimum (our CO is a Church, so it's kind of necessary).

 

Instead of flying the coop, speak to "veteran" parents and see what they tell you. If it's like this all year long, get outta there.

 

Good luck

 

 

[BadenP]

IMHO it is not your job to go in and try to save this poorly run pack, it probably has been this way for years and you will not change the leaders MO no matter how hard you try. Stop beating your head against the wall and run don't walk to another pack in your area and let your son have some great memories too.

[ChaiAdventure]

Totally agree with BP on this. I was in a similar positions and I was torn between trying to save a Pack , or just moving to a well-established one with a good program. I decided to move to the well-established Pack and do not regret it at all. In fact, I served as their CC and later as the CM.

 

Take care of your boy, find a good Pack, and let him enjoy his scouting experience. Taking on a role as a scouter in your new organization will serve that Pack well and your boy will enjoy your involvement/enthusiasm as well.

 

Good luck....

[John-in-KC]

Welcome, Jon M.

 

No, it's not supposed to be like this. I can't tell you how or why it got there, but it sounds like this Den and this Pack aren't really on the rails.

 

Lisa asks a bunch of good rhetorical questions to you. I think you should ponder your answers. They'll help you make a decision that's best for your family.

 

To me, that's why the exploration phase ... seeking out the Pack ... is so important. You're trusting that the other parents ... your fellow volunteers ... will be helping make a better life for your young son. If you see things that don't look and feel right, they probably aren't.

 

Go to Scouting.org. Take Fast Start for Cub Scouting (it's in My Scouting, under training). Take some time and look at these web pages. They don't substitute for position specific training, but they'll give you an idea of what the model is...

http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/Home/CubScouts.aspx

http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/Home/CubScouts/Parents/FamilyProgram.aspx

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/CubScouts/AboutCubScouts/ThePack.aspx

(each piece of the chart drills you down for "who does what for whom")

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/CubScouts/Leaders/NewLeaderResource.aspx

 

Then, you'll be able to decide if what your Pack is doing looks anywhere near right.

 

Assuming you decide this Pack is not for you...

 

1) Before you transfer your son, look at the new Pack as well. Make sure it appears to be doing things right... including family involvement.

 

2) Take the time to tell the Pack Committee Chair and the Chartered Organization Representative why you're leaving. Feedback is a gift, and a Pack cannot improve if they think all is well, and you're just disaffected.

 

Let us know how you decide on this.

[Jon M]

Thanks to all who replied! First I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't coming in to this whole thing with inflated and unrealistic expectations. My sense now is that I most certainly wasn't.

 

To Jet526:

I mispoke. It is not a combined Wolf/Bear Den - just a Wolf Den. So I guess they at least have that part right. At the beginning of next month I am attending a day-long "The Next Step" training session hosted by the local council and intend to spend some time getting to know other pack leaders from the area in an effort to perhaps identify an alternative to the chaos we have experienced so far.

 

To Lisabob:

Thanks for your reply. You are right in that it is a tricky situation. I do have time to dedicate as a volunteer but not massive amounts (maybe 10-15 hours a week). My wife is with me all the way on this as she would like nothing more than my son to have a great scouting experience.

 

We selected this pack because it was suggested to us by the District Executive and its Charter Organization is the local school district.

 

The current CM has held this position for at least 10 years, he is also the Cub Scout trainer for the district, and he is very passive and casual. He doesn't seem to think there are any problems with the way things are going and has told me that things usually are slow to start. The problem with this theory is that even the Dens having more experienced scouts, like the Webelo Den for example, are just as disorganized.

 

I have some time to dedicate to this but do not want to throw it away trying to repair something that does not want to be repaired. I have attempted to make a few suggestions to the DL but those were not met favorably.

 

A very simple example of this involves the Den number. The DL (at least her 2nd year) didn't know the den number when asked. She said it wasn't important and to just know the pack number. This brought questions to light regarding uniforms since there should be a den patch, right? She said that they don't really worry about uniforms either and in so many words said that if my son wore one to meetings that would be fine but he might be odd man out. Uniforms aside I suggested that it might be useful for the cubs to know their den number so when calling them all together you could simply say something like, "OK, Den #, line up over here". She did not react well to this suggestion and became somewhat defensive.

 

I think that we will look for a new pack.

 

To Jamist649:

Thanks for the input. The Pack has been around for a while (at least 10 years). I haven't yet spoken to any "veteran" parents although I haven't seen any either. The 2nd and 3rd year scouts seem to just get dropped off and then picked up at some point so getting their input might be difficult. The DL for the Bear Den doesn't seem altogether pleased with the way things are however he doesn't seem terribly motivated to do anything about it either. The majority of his cubs do wear uniforms to pack meetings but he likes the "go run around in the gym" theme of the pack meetings an even encourages his 12 or 13 year-old daughter to join in.

 

I like to consider myself a positive and optimistic person but I do have a hard time believing that any of this will transform into something better.

 

To BadenP:

Sadly I think that you might be right. I want to help. I want to make things better. But you are correct that this has probably been going on for quite sometime now and will be difficult if next to impossible to change.

 

I think that a new pack is in our future. I just feel bad for the Cubs and Webelos that will remain in that pack. I can't help but feel that they will really be missing out on something special.

 

To ChaiAdventure:

Thanks for sharing your experience and for the encouragement! I do believe that I will begin to look for a new pack. My son is excited and motivated and I do not want to lose the momentum! I will definitely plan on being as involved as they will let me be once we find a new pack.

 

To John-in-KC:

Thanks for the reply. I have already completed Fast Start for both CM and DL; I completed Youth Protection Training; and am enrolled in position specific training (not sure yet if for CM or DL) at the "Next Steps" training hosted by the local council. One of the problems here is that the CM for the pack in question is also the Cub Scout Trainer for the District and he will be "teaching" some of the position specific sessions. That should be interesting!

 

Hopefully there I will get an opportunity to meet the CM's of the other packs, and DL's, in the area and put together somewhat of a short-list of Packs/Dens that I would like to consider as possibilities and visit.

 

For sure feedback will be given. Like I mentioned I have had sort of an ongoing email conversation with the District Executive. The DE seems receptive but I just recently moved from alluding to problems to actually spelling them out. That email, sent a few days ago, is yet to be answered.

 

To ALL:

 

I can't thank all enough who took the time to reply and offer comments and suggestions. My main question has been definitively answered - at present this is NOT how things are supposed to be. This at least makes me comfortable that I am not leaping to conclusions or levying unrealistic expectations on the Pack based on a romanticism of my scouting experience as a youth.

 

I will for sure follow up after I have had the opportunity to meet with CM's and DL's from different packs.

 

Thanks again!

 

-Jon

 

 

 

[shortridge]

Just a word of advice -

 

Your DE is not going to be the best person to talk to about solving this pack's problems. He's busy with fundraising, recruiting and other bottom-line district operations. If everything's going reasonably well and this pack isn't on the verge of folding, Cubs running around in the gym and a den leader not knowing her den's number isn't going to rise to the top of his priority list.

 

Ask him for the name of the unit or district commissioner. They're the volunteers whose job it is to support the unit program and leadership, and who can best help you assess the situation.

[Jon M]

Thanks, shortridge, for the advice. I will locate conact info for the DC.

 

The problems with this particular pack transcend not knowing den numbers, not wearing uniforms, and running amock in the gymnasium. These are merely signs or indicators that serve to suggest the existence of larger problems.

 

CM and DL's not being in uniform, for example, is something that I am not accustomed to but could get past if the clothing they wore instead was neat and tidy. At last week's pack meeting the DL had on a rather well worn sweatshirt and faded blue-jeans with holes in both knees. If one does not have enough self-respect to be neat and tidy what level of respect do you suppose they might have for others?

 

What happened to leadership by example? What happened to the promise to do one's best (ripped jeans - Is that really the best you can do)? Like I said, these seemingly little things are indicative of a more pervasive reality impacting the overall dynamic of the group and its potential for successfully modeling, suggesting, developing, and/or encouraging those qualities and situations determined to result in a scout of "good character".

 

Just my two-cents

[EJCrimmins]

I'll echo others that this is certainly not how it should be. But wanted to add or reinforce a comment or two.

 

First, as mentioned already, while the DE is a wonderful resource he isn't the right resource for this problem. Don't put any stock that he sent you to the pack, I would guess he sent you to the pack in the first place based on where you are geographically located, nothing more, it wasn't an endorsement to say this was a great pack. As long as a pack is not going to shut down, does reasonably well with recruitment, and contributes some FOS dollars the DE is going to leave them alone. Hopefully their Unit Commissioner would step in and let them know this isn't the program but in my experience UC's with good Cub Scout knowledge are hard to come by. After you have the list of packs that are reasonably close to you, speak with their leaders, ask critical questions that address your concerns, and visit.

 

If you find a combined Wolf/Bear den that isn't a big deal, or a pack that doesn't split Webelos that's even a smaller deal with a good leader. These ages were designed to be combined and will often be in a very small pack, I would find it a little odd in a larger pack but ultimately it can be done.

 

I will add don't get hung up on Den numbers. Some packs use them, some don't. If you have a pack with multiple dens at each level it is almost a necessity, without them I could certainly see some confusion or chaos. However, in a pack with only one den for each age group of boys its not uncommon to just call them the Tiger Den, the Wolf Den, etc. I've been with both ways, with and without den numbers. It really makes no difference to how well the program runs if you only have a single den at each age.

 

 

[Lisabob]

Given the additional detail, I'd say run for the hills. You have a pack where the CM has been in charge for 10 years and is also the district trainer?! No way is he going to change his approach or step down/aside without a big fight. At least, that's my experience with these situations.

 

The other thing you want to keep in mind is that sometimes DE's and district membership chairs are known to guide new families to struggling packs, in hopes of keeping the pack alive. I can't know if the DE did this in your case, but I think it is possible. The best guides to finding a good pack are your fellow parents, and your fellow volunteer cub leaders in your area. They will know each other and can usually provide you with a more candid assessment of the strong and weak programs in your area. The DE's job performance is fundamentally assessed based on quantity, not quality, although some lucky districts do have DEs who emphasize both.

 

By the way, you may want to check on the charter org. Several years ago, in order to keep on the right side of some legal matters, the BSA switched from allowing public schools to sponsor packs, to not allowing that. So it might be the PTO, or some other school-related group, but it is probably not the district itself acting as the charter org for this pack.

[Greaves]

The den number thing is not universally used--as mentioned. My son's Pack has one den per rank level, and we've never used den #s. We call groups out by rank--"Bears, over here!" It works for us, and den #s have not been needed.

 

Having said that, though. . .that's a level of chaos that would have my family elsewhere. My son and I are ADHD, and we do not thrive in those situations.

 

Not wearing the uniform removes part of the reward of Scouting. That makes me sad for the un-uniformed kids, who don't have anywhere to wear their arrow points and belt loops and beady-things. What's the point in working on stuff when the reward has to sit in a drawer because there's no shirt to sew it to?

[Jon M]

To EJCrimmins:

Hello and thanks for the comments. I am not fixating on Den Numbers or anything but was just a bit concerned when the DL had no idea what it was since one had apparently been assigned.

 

Although to be honest I actually do see merit in using an actual den number since a den might have new cubs without rank, bobcats, and wolves. Is this a wolf den? I find that it might be easier to just say this is Den 123. It lends fully inclusive cohesion to the group reminding them that although in one regard they are at different levels in another they are all still members of the same small group - Den 123 (or whatever that might be).

 

IMHO having no den number might be something like not having an actual team name for High School sports teams but instead just calling them the Varsity Baseball Team, The Varsity Hockey Team, The Varsity Basketball Team, etc. Just seems kinda weird to me

 

To Lisabob:

Thanks Lisabob - you are correct. It is not the actual school district but the PTL of that particular district.

 

You've provided some useful insight regarding the DE. I do appreciate that.

 

And yes, I do believe that that we will be looking for another pack sooner rather than later.

 

To Greaves:

The disregard for wearing the uniform (both cubs and leaders) is confusing to me as well. Although it takes more than just wearing the uniform to make a scout it does take a scout to wear the uniform.

 

As far as the CM and the DL's not wearing uniforms I can tell you that the first evening we showed up for Fall Scouting Night it was difficult to discern parent from leader since nobody was in uniform. Should have read the writing on the wall then, huh? Oh well. Live and learn I suppose.

 

Thank you all for your comments!

 

-Jon

 

[dg98adams]

..sometimes DE's and district membership chairs are known to guide new families to struggling packs, in hopes of keeping the pack alive.

 

That's exactly what I have overheard.

 

As a CM/DL wearing your uniform is needed for reasons mentioned and:

• see me, this is not go-crazy time
  
• see me, this is Cub Scout time (they often behave better in uniform)
  
• see me, I am proud to be in cub Scouts, you should be too!
  

 

If you take Cubs to an event, people recognize the uniform, and they elevate them to a higher level of respect for expectation of their service.

 

A mob of un-uniformed kids running amok, has no identity, thus no responsibility.