Den dues- who "holds" them, Pack or Den? (really long)

[Ltfightr]

I'm a new Cubmaster. I've just started this year (last year I was the Tiger Leader). I found out tonight from a parent (no less!) that my Bear leader has started to charge Den Dues. Not much. Just 50 cents a week. But this is NOT something I should of found out from a parent. He might of said something about it at the first of the year that he might start doing it but I don't remember if he did or not.

 

I've been a bit busy in the past month. We went from 9 boys to 14 boys to 29 boys at the last meeting! Yes you saw that right! So every week for the past month, I've been meeting new parents, tell them what we are doing, popcorn sells, help new Tiger leader, meet new Tigers, Wolves, Bears, and Webloes. You know, first of the year stuff.

 

I was talking to him tonight and I was asking him to bring a bag of candy to the Halloween party. I said that the Leaders were doing this not the Pack (which means I bring 2 bags-DH is the Wolf leader and some door prizes). He wanted to know when this was desided and I reminded him about when we had talked about it and told him I was a little worried about the Pack budget because of the growth. Which lead him to asking if we would have money for him to take the Bears to a HS football game and I said yes we should but you know, awards....BLs......rechartering.....blah blah blah. No where in any of this did he say they started dues!

 

Later I was talking to one of the new moms (who brought all the new boys!) and said we might have to look at dues but I really didn't want to. She said "besides the ones that the bears charge?" Yeah, not the way I wanted to find that out! I just looked at her with a blank look and she went on to say it was only 50 cents, just started, stuff like that.

 

I talked to the old cubmaster for a miunte but she had to run and get her son so we didn't really have more time to talk.

 

Before the meeting ended, the mom who told me asked her DS if he had paid his dues yet and he said no and the Asst. DL said she didn't have the "due jar" with her so they would do it next week. I took the minute and asked what the dues were going to be used for and the DL said basiclly awards, fees to get into places, that type thing (you know stuff that comes out of the pack budget!)

 

SO! What to do from here? Who holds the dues? The Pack or the Den? Do I ask them to show me the money once a month? We have never colleted them before. Ignore for the momment that the DL didn't tell me that he was starting this. I have other trouble with him, nothing big just little stuff.

 

None of the other leaders have trouble with paying for things out of their pockets. The Web leader just did something tonight that he paid for. The Tiger leader brought his project supplies last week. And the Wolf leader paid for the project that the Bears did tonight and that the Wolves did last week! I don't think they should ALWAYS pay out of pocket but sometimes it's no big deal. And if they asked to be paid back we would from the pack fund.

 

Sorry this was so long. I just don't really know what to do about him. I don't think he is doing anything wrong but I'm a very different Leader than the old cubmaster and I don't want to be pushy. I know what I want the pack to be and I think he has trouble seeing the big picture. Thanks for any input.

[ScoutNut]

First of all, it is not the Cubmaster's job to deal with the financial side of the Pack. That is the job of the Committee Chair.

 

Pack and Den dues are two entirely different animals.

 

Pack dues are generally included with the money earned from Pack fundraisers, put into a Pack bank account, and used to pay for, at least, yearly registration costs, recharter costs, rank award badges, immediate recognition totem/beads, elective beads/arrowheads/compass points, Webelos colors, and Webelos Activity Pins. Depending on what is in the Pack budget, and what they can afford, Pack monies can also be used to purchase other Cub award patches (Leave No Trace, Belt Loops/Pins, Cub Outdoor, etc), participation/fun patches from Pack or Den activities, entry fees for outside Pack level activities, neckerchiefs, handbooks, slides, Pinewood Derby kits, Pack camping trips, Day Camp, Summer Camp, and even leader training. It depends on what is in the Pack budget.

 

Den dues are used to purchase supplies for den meetings (paper, paint, crayons, string, glue, tape, poster board, fabric, wood, etc), entry fees for Den outings, patches from an outing venue (state park patch when the den goes there for an outing), a den party, and pretty much anything else that the Pack does not pay for.

 

Every Pack handles Pack and Den dues differently.

 

Some Packs include an amount for Den dues in the amount they charge for Pack dues. Packs that do this usually cover den expenses up to a certain amount. Some Packs will keep the den money in with the Pack money and require receipts in order to reimburse the den leader. Some Packs will simply give each den a specific amount at the beginning of the year.

 

Some Packs will collect only Pack dues and leave Den dues up to the individual den leaders to deal with on their own.

 

My Pack does not charge Pack dues as our popcorn fundraiser covers all Pack expenses for the year. However, we do not budget anything for den expenses. Den leaders are on their own to decide if, and how much den dues they will charge. While the Pack will pay for just about any/all patches for the boys, and we have a group supply cabinet for basic stuff, special materials for den projects, den outing costs, and other den only expenses would come out of Den dues. I do not charge my Tigers anything because generally the Tiger Team running the meeting provides all needed supplies. Some of the other den leaders charge about $10-$15 per boy per year (which works out to around $0.50 a meeting). Left over den monies are usually spent on an end of the year den party (ice cream cones, pizza, or even just Popsicles).

 

I am surprised that your Pack does not have a policy on dues that is known to all of it's leaders. Usually the Committee Chair spells that all out as part of the yearly program and budget planning Pack Leaders meeting.

 

I would suggest you talk to your Committee Chair and Treasurer to see what is included in your Pack's budget and how they handle Den dues. Then if the den leader is handling it incorrectly, your Committee Chair can talk to him/her about the correct procedure.

 

 

[Ltfightr]

Thanks! As I said, we have always been a small pack. The old cubmaster, who is now CC and the treasurer, doesn't remember a time when we had more than 15 boys in the pack. It's a case of "this is the way we have always done it." We are trying some new things, like Denners this year. And this is the first time this den has had more than just the DL and Asst. DL's 2 boys in it. We have always just used popcorn money for everything but then we never really did anything as a pack either.

 

I'll just tell him that the Pack buys the awards (he ordered Bear patches from the DE at the beginning of the year w/out telling me) and he can use the dues for other stuff. Looks like a Leader meeting is in order.

[dg98adams]

Yeah, you will need to deal with;

 

"he ordered Bear patches from the DE at the beginning of the year w/out telling me"

 

Because you need an advancement report for rank. This should not be done without the advancement/CM, as this is a not a function of the den leader.

 

[KISMIF_Works]

I've been a Den Leader for a few years now, and in our pack each den is on its own with regards to all meeting supplies, outing fees, etc. Each Den Leader decides on his/her own how to handle den dues to cover those costs.

 

In my opinion the problem with this approach is that each leader must always keep meetings 'on-the-cheap', or else ask parents for additional money to pay for supplies (dues), or else fish around for donated materials. In practice for me it's been a combination of all three.

 

One year I tried $1 per meeting (half of which was meant to spread out the cost of a bowling party), the next year I tried a flat $5 fee (we didn't have an outing to pay for), and this year I am back to $1 per meeting. I estimate that I have collected about 80% of what I have asked for over the years. There are a couple families in our den that are struggling, and I end up letting it go rather than ask yet again for the dues. Either way it puts me in an awkward situation (play collections officer or pay out-of-pocket myself).

 

This week we are having a Halloween-themed Pack meeting, with games to play and prizes to win. I am on the hook for bringing prizes to hand out for my den's game, at a cost of around $10. Not a big deal, except if I wasn't the Den Leader then I wouldn't be expected to bring them, so in a way it's a small fee I get to pay for being a volunteer.

 

Sorry to ramble, but this is actually an issue I've been thinking about as I prepare to take over Cubmaster duties next year. My conclusion at this point is that moving forward it is in the best interest of each den if the pack budgets some money for den supplies.

 

In our experience the Den Leader holds on to the den dues, since he/she is using them directly for the den meetings. Personally I wouldn't take offense to his not telling you about it. He saw an issue within his den, and addressed it in a reasonable manner. If he charged an excessive amount or something, that would be another story.

 

[cubbingcarol]

Be careful not to step on toes by wanting to dictate what your den leaders can and can not do. Our Cub master lets us leaders run our dens. As long as boys are having fun and advancing we are a go without rules and regulations set forth by him. I have charged monthly den dues since I started in 2004. I use it for snacks and supplies. As far as Pack finances we sell Popcorn in fall and then do our own fundraiser in spring, these carry us for the year without charging Pack dues.

As far as expecting leaders to pay out of pocket some of the time, that is a dangerous thing to do. Now I have been able to afford it so far, but sometimes by the skin of my teeth. I know we have a leader or two that simply could not afford anything out of pocket more than just for their own child. If we presented potential leaders with the mindset of 'you will be expected to pay out of pocket some of the time' we would probably exclude some potentially great leaders due to financial hardships.

I didn't mean to ramble but I hate it when I'm 'expected' to do things, I wish others would take Scouting seriously and not just view it as a free babysitting service.

 

Carol

[acco40]

Who should hold the den dues? Who do you think?

 

Who do you think should hold the pack dues?

[FScouter]

Pack dues? Den dues? Who should pay for the operation of the Scouting program?? Is the Cubmaster expected to pay the expense of operating a pack? Does a Scoutmaster pay to run a troop? Does a patrol leader pay the cost of his patrol? Of course not! Why then should a den leader be expected to pay the costs of running a den program?

 

Den expenses should be budgeted in the pack budget and paid by the pack. If the pack doesnt have a budget or some kind of plan to cover costs, Id have no problem at all with the den leader making her own arrangements.

[Basementdweller]

I am uncomfortable with a DL holding the dues.

 

It is my opinion that the Dues should be turned into the Treasurer each week with an accounting of who paid. Then when the DL need to access them it is a simple matter of the Treasurer writing a check for the amount to the DL.

 

Money does weird things to people. even a jar full of quarters.

 

We use envelopes with the Den number an names on it who paid. The Treasurer includes Den finances in the finance report to the Committee.

[Ltfightr]

Thanks, everyone!

 

The patch issue has already been taken care of. And I hope for good. I think what I'm going to do is just let him hold the dues but keep updated on everything. If he ask for money for something, I'll ask about what he has been using his dues for. I have no problem with the pack paying for anything they need and/or want. I think it was just the way he came across to me when we were talking about the budget at the start.

 

And I would never make the other leaders think they had to give any money for anything. Most of the stuff I do myself and they never know about it until it's done.

 

I have been giving the Leader free range to do what they want. I only ask that we all meet at the same time/place unless they have something planned already. i.e. go to the park, football game, ect. The Bears last year NEVER came to anything. The Bear Leader (same on who is now doing dues) wanted to met at his house. Last year it was just his son and the asst. DL's son in the den. I told him I really didn't like the idea. Luckly, the DE and old cubmaster (now the Commette Chairperson) agreed with me.

 

Wow, this is sounding like I have either no control OR I'm a control freak! Everything eles is working out fine, really it is! We are having fun and the boys are excited to come every week. I think I have a good program coming in the future.

 

Thanks for all the thoughts and ideas on how to handle things so far.

 

Diana

[FScouter]

Den meetings are separate from pack meetings. It's a great idea for the den to meet at the DL house. The other dens have no involvement.

[raisinemright]

My den pays $1.00 per meeting when I remember to get the jar out. I've never recorded what I get, what's in the jar or what I spend. Generaly there's never more than $20 in it and it's usually close to empty at the end of the year.

 

I think if you start making DL's account for every penny, you'll start losing them. We all put out far more of our own money anyway.

[shortridge]

On the issue of den meetings, I'd agree with FScouter. Unless there's a compelling overarching reason (such as the CO wants it that way!) to have all dens meet at the same time and same place, each den should be free to set its own meeting times and locations.

 

My parents were my DLs, so I have great Cub memories of running around in my yard, doing obstacle courses and fitness tests, getting the bejeezus scared out of us playing "Refuel the Spaceship," practicing knots, doing the Wolf yell and learning Whittlin' Chip. When I later became a den chief, I was dismayed to find the den met in a room upstairs at the CO, a church. (Bor-ing! Very little fun happened there.)

[eghiglie]

Typically Den dues cover den expenses that Pack dues don't cover.

 

When I was WDL we charged $4 a month (4 boys), at the end of the time (16 months) there was $12 left.

 

The idea that they should be turned into the Pack Treasurer just adds a barrier. All it does is make it harder for the WDL to get reimbursement on the craft supplies that had to be bought.

 

Also, not everyone can afford to pay for stuff out of their pocket.

 

 

[Twocubdad]

The best advice you've been given thus far is that it's not your problem. The pack committee chairman and treasurer are responsible for finances and need to handle it.

 

My input would be that there needs to be a consistent policy throughout the pack. Of course, the policy may state den dues are at the descretion of the den leader. But I do believe it is reasonable to put some controls in place. For example, you may want to set a maximum amount the dens can charge. It would also be reasonable to ask the DLs to treat the den funds as a petty cash account and note the weekly income and expenses somewhere. The whole thing could be tracked on a heavy duty envelope with the money and receipts kept inside. At the end of the year the DLs turn the envelopes in to the treasurer. Back in the day, I remember my mom kept the den dues envelope in the kitchen cabinet. Dues were 10 cents a week then. Many was the morning my dad would put a dollar in the den envelope and my brother and I would go to school with a pocket of dimes for lunch money.

 

Whatever you come up with, have your Chartered Organization Representative sign off on it. After all, the money belongs to the Chartered Organization. Then they policy has some mantle of authority if anyone wants to grumble.

 

But the world is wide open as to how the pack chooses to handle it. There is bound to be some solution that makes everyone reasonably happy.