nasty postings

[rlculver415]

I was raised to believe that while it is acceptable to disagree with another's statements, there were certain rules that should be observed:

 

1) Statements can be true or false - opinions do not have those values. They are just opinions.

 

2) Be careful what you say, the words can never be retracted nor can apologies mend a hurt.

 

3) If after debating an issue, there is still disagreement - then the parties must agree to disagree agreeably.

 

4) Speak the truth with kindness.

 

It seems to me that in several threads on this forum lately, there has been a lot of unkind and disagreeable postings. I find it offensive and unscoutlike. Sometimes an offense is taken about another's post, that I am not sure was intended to be offensive. Written words unlike spoken ones don't really give away inflection. Please ladies and gentlemen, let us try to avoid unpleasantness - even if the other party is unpleasant first.

[acco40]

"agree to disagree agreeably" - I like that.

 

I've noticed that Scouting often brings out the best in people and computer forums, and the anonymity it gives, tends to bring out the worst.

[akela]

very well put and it needed to be said!

 

[eisely]

rlculver415,

 

You are absolutely correct. I have been amazed at the lack of civility on the part of some participants in this forum. Of course, by internet standards (a nice oxymoron that) this forum is really quite tame. That does not excuse some of the poor conduct by people who supposedly hold themselves to higher standards.

 

We can engage in spirited exchanges and learn from each other while still disagreeing on many points. Why do some feel they have to engage in personal invective? Even where I might agree with the substance of a particular post, I am put off by the behavior of some forum participants and less inclined to take their views seriously.

[red feather]

Input to a forum should always be accepted. The response generated is then open to review and 'attitude check'. The negative response just might be the one that is at the heart of the problem in question. Removal of non-correct responses limits the ability of the poster to express their beliefs and philosphies. Let 'em express and then determine the level of believability and usefullness.

[Bob White]

I can accept to agree to disagree on some topics. However many of the subjects that have brought about the most venomous responses are matters of policies and regulations. As a Commissioner or trainer you cannot simply say "well that's your opinion". We have a resonsibility to the safety of all scouts and scouting programs to say "No, that is unacceptable in a scouting situation."

 

There are "scouters" on this board who are acting or allowing others to act in very dangerous and prohibited ways. I realize they don't like being told what they are doing is wrong but they need to be told before a boy or a program is harmed.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[sst3rd]

Bob,

 

For a lot of us who have been in Scouting as youth, and again as adult leaders, it's hard to let go of the many "traditions" of Scouting that were, at the time, okay to allow as part of the BSA program. Most of them, yes in my opinion, added to the program in appropriate ways. Society was different then, and I'm not going to argue specifics. Today, everything is on the table for evaluating. Traditions are trashed to the lowest common denominator. Everyone is watching everyone else, looking for any inappropriate behaviour. The Scouts have long since picked up on this. Scouting in today's society, is a huge challenge to say the least for all adult leaders. We must know, acknowledge, put into practice, all BSA policies, rules, edicts, whatever they are called. Period. No room for opinions, interpretations, or common sense.

As for me and our Troop's current adult Staff, we must create an energetic atmosphere for training the youth leaders of our Troop as they come on board. They hear of years past, the campfire programs, skits, and stories, and we can no longer allow them. Most of this material came from Basic Leader Training, and later promoted and encouraged at Woodbadge. So, we show them where to find new material to use, and it's just so boring and juvenile, it's hard to get them to use it. Another challenge we adult leaders face, and will accept. It's become more time consuming then ever, to train these young men in creating an exciting program they can bring to the Troop. For smaller Troops with less resources, it's getting old. But we ain't done quite yet.

I agree, policies and regulations are NOT open for interpretation. You go Bob.

 

sst3rd

[Bob White]

sst3rd,

I really do appreciate your feelings on this but I can't help but think that many leaders make this harder than it really is. As far as the rules and regulations in youth protection it is really very basic. When the scouts first learn the Oath and the Law let them know it is a personal committment not an openiing ceremony. That you promise to treat them in a manner consistent with the Scout Law and you require them to treat others, including fellow scouts, in this way if they intend to remain in the troop. It's the LAW. Use your scoutmaster Minutes as well as SM conferences and Boards of review to help each individual sharpen their understanding of scouting ideals.

 

When you do this, improper behaviour is glaringly obvious. In addition the scouts already know that they have committed a serious misdeed. When you send them home, they and their parents know why. No big meetings, no awkward converstaions or lectures. It becomes "what is the 5th point of the scout Law?", "What does that mean to you?", "Do you feel you behaved in a scout like manner?" "What do you think would be an appropriate thing to do now?" Barring situations that violate youth protection, the scout has an opportunity to make a better decision than the one that put him outside the LAW. He learns and grows. No shouting, No need for a mass of troop rules and regs. The only rule is to be a scout, behave like a scout.

 

There is a problem among scouters distinguishing between tradition and bad habits. It seems if you are allowed to continue a bad habit long enough it gets elevated to the honorable state of tradition. Scouting has become filled with bad habits. Some are unique to a troop, a locale, or on a national level. This is where you need common sense, not in determining which rule to follow. Never do anything just because someone or several someones did it before you.

 

There are alot of safety rules because we have A LOT of volunteers, all from different backgrounds, occupational and educational experiences. Among them are some folks who do a lot of really stupid things. If we don't put those rules in writing, teach them and insist they be followed it would only take one really stupid person to do one really stupid thing and they could shut this program down.

 

Every time we as leaders allow those kind of things to happen we open the door to disaster. That is why it is neccessary to follow the rules like them or not. We have a responsibility to the welfare of all of scouting, not just the unit we serve.

 

Thanks for your time, more later,

Bob White

[OldGreyEagle]

sst3rd

 

Off the subject a bit but regarding rehashing the same old tired skits, I have a simple rule, if we've seen it, we dont do it. For the last 3 years out troop has written new skits for summercamp. Its a fun process the kids can really get into. You will find you have "funny boys" in the troop, use them to make up current topic skits, its a lot of fun (be sure to approve the script)

 

We now return to the schdeuled ranting and venting

(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[sctmom]

Recently I thought about a few things from my teenage years (the late 70's) that were traditions and how appalled I would be if my child did those things today.

 

Each year the Beta Club went to the big city about 100 miles away for the state convention. It was the ONLY thing we did all year as a club. The tradition was to get drunk and find someone to make out with. The teachers knew this. Sometimes we stayed in hotel rooms used by state congressman from our district. Those men drank a lot. The credenza in their rooms were full of liquor -- 20 to 30 bottles. I knew before my first trip to volunteer to stay in one of those rooms, take only one or two drinks from a bottle, and no one would know.

 

I also remember thinking how much fun other groups seemed to be having as they had people running for office, they displayed their scrapbooks and did all the things you were supposed to do.

 

Our chaperones knew we drank. They just didn't want any hurt, arrested or pregnant. None of those happened, only by the grace of God. I remember the 9th grader who was passed out drunk by 7:00 the first evening. He was a little guy and had drank most of a fifth of vodka by himself and had eaten nothing. Some of us girls cleaned up his puke and got him settled in a bed to sleep it off. He could have died!

 

We could have also have had great fun by following the program. Traditions of skits are great. The boys think the "royal paper" skit is the funniest thing they ever saw. Gross is funny for boys. Those are good traditions. Belittling people and physically hurting people are not good traditions, those are bad habits.

 

[Bob White]

An excellent example sctmom. Thanks.

Bob

[yaworski]

"There are "scouters" on this board who are acting or allowing others to act in very dangerous and

prohibited ways"

 

Gotta agree with you here. Many deaths have been caused by Cub Scouts wearing an unapproved neckerchief.

 

 

[ozemu]

Rick has a good view.

 

I am put off from replying to a thread that has gone personal. So the attitude limits the field I suppose and that isn't especially fruitfull.

 

Also I'm not really interested in 17 emails which announce a giant arguement between two people on Scouter.com. How about after a single response the arguements go on via "Send Private Message' and stop wasting our time.