Your thoughts on Den size?

[eaglenjake]

I serve as Committee Chair for our pack and I currently find myself at odds with the Cub Master and some Den Leaders on den size. Two years ago we had 22 Tigers join our ranks and only two dads offered leadership-both being their second time as DLs with younger sons. So we pressed on with one den of 22, which followed last year with a Tiger den of 17, and then this year we're back with another Tiger den of 20. My son is currently a second year Webelos scout and we have 2 dens in this rank-which has worked fine. The problem is that the den of 22 has worked out fine as well, they get some other adults engaged and work the boys through stations of dads in smaller groups. So large dens have become the norm at this point. I worry about the size that the boys are getting the most of the den experience. While there has been only a few drop offs, things do seem to be working. Am I rocking the boat for no reason here? I'm looking for your thoughts and comments on what's worked for your packs.

[dg98adams]

Since Tigers are accompanied by the parent... den size is not a major consideration.

 

But how big are the dens in the other ranks? #8-10 from Wolf to Webelos is the norm. sized den I have worked with.

[scoutldr]

Den size of 6-8 is recommended.

 

22 is insane.

[Buffalo Skipper]

As a den leader and former cubmaster, I have strong opinions on this. Six to eight is optimal. For 21 scouts, I would insist on 3 dens. I have over and over seen large dens simply implode on themselves. We once had a similar number in our pack. We had one den leader who inisisted she would only take 8, while the other took on over a dozen. Both leaders were working on second sons and were experienced. After one year, the first den lost only 1 scout, while the other den lost all but 4. The cliques and sub groups that formed in the den underminded the whole system. Likewise the next year, we had a group of 14 which completely disentigrated, and only 2 scouts returned the next year (the remnants of this group is the den for which I am the den leader--I took over last year). We have 5 scouts, none of which remain from the original 14 Tigers.

 

Break up the den. I can offer no other advice.

[EagleBeaver]

I can think of no advantage for the cub scouts in having a mega-den. The advantage is just for the parents that can remove themselves from committing to a role.

 

As a group this big moves through the years, they miss out on the growing responsibilities and decisions that should be passed on to them. Few get to be denners, lead activities, and feel ownership of their den. Just slogging along with the crowd instead of navigating a new trail will degrade the scouting experience for most of them.

 

Scout On

[Eagle92]

Ok I am a TCDL right now and after monday's nite meeting, 20 is way to many even with active parents. First meeting wasn't too bad as it was our Go See IT and the local FD did a great job.

 

But our next meeting, while planned using Program Helps, was still a littel chaotic. Hopefuly we will be getting some TCDLs and splitting the den into 3 dens.

[OneHour]

8-10 are ideal for me. 6 are too small. >10 are too many! dg98adams is right. Tigers, the parents are required to help out; however, at Wolf and Bear, you, your ADL, and one to two parent helpers will be enough to handle 8-10 boys. At webelos ages, the Den leadership can dropt to the DL and ADL (plus one helper ... namely a boy scout Den Chief).

 

Logistically, 22 is a nightmare. To contain and actually have meaningful den meetings where the boys will be able to take turn become a Denner will be impossible in a den size of 22! Have you ever had a den bike ride with 22 boys or walking through a police department with 22 boys? You got the picture.

 

6 boys are too small, because where we live there is at a baseball game, basketball game, hockey, etc ... each night! Assuredly, I would have 2-3 boys out. With only 3 boys, I don't have much of a den! But with 8-10 boys, the den will continue even with a sport active group of boys!

 

Some here will challenge me on the 8-10 boys, but it works well for me and our pack!

 

My oldest son's den had 9 at Tiger year. At the Webelos cross over 4.5 years later, we had 8 crossed over (1 moved). Of those eight, 4 are eagle scouts, 3 moved, and 1 found other interests.

 

My second son's den had 9 tigers. At webelos cross over, we had 8 crossed over to boy scout (1 moved). Of those eight, 4 are life scouts working on their eagles, 3 are stars, and 1 is still 1st class (about to get his star).

 

My third son's den currently has 9. One just moved to Qatar with his family and we just gained one at Rally Night. They are Webelos. At any den meeting night for the past 3 years, we have 7-8 cubs and have a great time!

 

In other words, they tend to stay close to each other all the way to eagles ... and it's a neat thing to see!

 

Good luck,

 

1Hour(This message has been edited by OneHour)

[Snow_White]

I agree that 22 is way too large a den size! In addition to the logistical problems, I don't see how a den leader can get to know the scouts as individuals, understand if they are facing advancement challenges and need additional guidance, etc... I would guess that some of the den activities end og being more like classroom exercises with that many, as well.

 

My son's den has consistently been the largest in our pack, varying between 9 - 13 from Tigers through Webelos. At times, we have thought about splitting, but no one really wanted to address how we would do the split, keeping friends together, recruiting new leaders. We have been able to keep the den on track because we have a pretty involved parent base helping out - the den leaders wouldn't have been able to do it on their own.

[Eagle92]

Snow White,

Welcome to the forums.

[Greaves]

I would run away from a monster den of twenty two, or fall over in a faint.

 

If you have two dads ready to sign up, that makes two dens. A den can function without an official assistant. Break them in half, have one DL dad for each, and use your parental involvement to keep DL Dads supported by single night volunteers functioning as ADL.

 

Sell it to the other leaders as "small class sizes." Small class sizes are what parents WANT for their darlings. More individualized attention, etc etc.

[packsaddle]

I agree that a Tiger den is open to some latitude. But once they go on, I agree that a den of 6-10 is a good size. Larger might be tough if you have even one 'difficult' boy. Smaller than about 4, the den starts to lose the social flavor which isn't a bad thing sometimes.

My preference was 6-10. There isn't a hard rule on this though.

[Twocubdad]

Even with Tigers a den that size is a bad idea. That means you have 40 people at den meetings. That's a decent sized pack! Who wants to bet that with 20 adults at den meetings instead of engaging their Tigers, half the partents are off in a corner socializing?

 

An what happens when one of the DLs gets transferred and the other burns out? You've lost an entire class of Scouts. With properly sized dens, if something goes south you have at least minimized your losses. It happens.

 

Follow the program. The right size for a den is +/- 8.