Can You Explain Why....

[yaworski]

"BTW- The BSA did abandon camping in the 70's (or close enough to abandoning it for me). "

 

I'm sure that at the time Bob thought it was an excellent decision.

[FScouter]

1. I dont believe criticisms toward Bob are necessarily for his opinions and statements. I see the criticisms more as rebuttals to his own criticisms of the ideas, processes, practices, and policies of others. I dont think people resent the information or the knowledge he has to offer. They resent the implication, sometimes not so subtle, that they are a poor leader, untrained, or less of a person, because they have ideas or practices that conflict with the scouting way.

 

Bob doesnt seem to accept that most of us of us have not had the same amount of training as he. When we do something wrong, it is not necessarily because we intentionally want to violate the book or the program. It is because we just dont know. Scouters and troops formulate practices based on the best information and experience that they have. I dont believe they dont intentionally adopt practices that conflict with BSA policies and methods.

 

No one likes to hear that their ideas or practices are wrong. People are put off when someone (Bob) comes along and dismisses their ideas as wrong, and presents his own way as right. People are not going to quickly drop their current way and adopt a different way because of a posting on a message board. Bob sometimes doesnt seem to understand that.

 

When Bob responds in a demeaning way, that puts people off. People come to this board to look for helpful ideas, and dont want to be put down and belittled in the process. Bob does that. He doesnt like a debate and an exchange of ideas, unless the ideas are the right ideas. I believe that with a open exchange of ideas, both right and wrong, people will be able to filter it all out and come to the right conclusions. Bob cant wait that long. Wrong ideas are quickly squelched, and his way, which he presents as the BSA way, is presented as the only way. That may be so, but some people are skeptical and need to go through the discussion and debate process and come to that conclusion on their own. Meeting the ideas and thoughts of others with derision does not facilitate that process.

 

Before change will happen, people need to first understand the benefits of changing to a new practice, and the problems with their current practice. This understanding process takes a bit of time, and isnt quick enough for Bob. This natural reluctance of people to immediately abandon an established practice frustrates him and he subtly or not so subtly portrays the poster as untrained, unwilling to learn, a bad leader, etc. Belittling, demeaning, and sarcastic comments cause further entrenchment.

 

2. People frequently direct questions specifically to Bob. Other posters get far fewer direct questions. Why? Other posters do not present themselves as the final authority on all Scouting topics. Bob does. Other posters do not attempt to answer every question that is posted. Bob does. Other posters may not respond to posts for hours or even days later. Bob frequently responds within minutes. I sometimes wonder when he sleeps, and how he gets any work done at his day job! When a poster needs an authoritative answer now and is not interested in developing a discussion, Bob is the one to ask.

 

Now, having said all this, I see Bob as a very welcome addition to the board. His knowledge is extensive, and I have learned much from his being here.

 

[evmori]

Bob & I have gone toe to toe in quite a few instances. Usually because we interpret thing differently. I view Bob as a wealth of knowledge who makes me think about the way I do things as a Scout leader. I'm glad Bob is an avid poster on this board.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[sst3rd]

Please, make it stop. I just can't handle the anger anymore (joke.....). However, if I want opinions, inputs, thoughts and ideas, I ask for it, and get it.

 

If I need a quick policy check, I throw it toward Bob. If someone else answers, great. I usually ask for directions to the written word to back up the answer, and everyone responds, Bob included.

 

I thank all for you for sharing your Scouting Spirit.

 

sst3rd

[KoreaScouter]

On Star Trek, Capt Kirk, as any good leader does, solicited opinions from many of his officers. Mr Spock always gave the unemotional, logical input. That's Bob, and I've used him as an AI system or human encyclopedia in the past, as we all have. The key is knowing his world view, and also coming from an experienced-enough position so you know the bold-type policies from the normal-type recommendations...

 

KS

[ASM1]

This "Bob White" commercial brought to you by the friendly people at Forums/Scouter.com. Please remember to support your local Friends of Scouting Program.

 

That sounds right for this thread.

 

 

Don't sell your own opinions short, and don't place all your eggs in one basket. Think for yourself.

 

ASM1

[ozemu]

Bob White strikes me as the sort of busy, dedicated, freindly-with-a-beer-in-hand, no nonsense type of officer whom I met often while in the Army.

 

If you stick your head through his door and ask a question you'll get it quick, firmly and without much thought for style etc. Those blokes were just too busy. With his prolific postings and I'm sure that he searches documents as well as his brain for answers I do not expect pussy footing. My hide is not as thick as his but I can tolerate the style without feeling anything personal.

 

I'd like to chat around a campfire with him - I don't suppose that he'd quote books and I might get to know him rather than BSA rules.

[Bob White]

Well some of you are probably wondered when or if I'd reply so I might as well do so now.

 

I will apoligize in advance for the length of this post because you given me many things to respond to.

 

First, Thanks to OGE for what I think was an effort to drum up any evidence of support for my participation on this board. The effort was unnecesary but appreciated.

 

Secondly, thank you to those who appreciate or at the very least put up with my prose. Some comments were especially kind.

 

Next, my demeanor as expressed in my posts. Some of you would be very surprised if you knew me as a scouter in my community or from my training courses. I am by know means known as a stern, unfriendly, no style rule quoter. Actually quite the opposite. I think the perception here comes from two things. I take much more of a counseling style in person, but that takes more time and space than this format allows. So for the sake of efficiency I cut right to the chase. A chat room would be more my personal style, I just can't type fast enough.

 

Secondly is the content of most of the strings on this board and my responsibilities in scouting. Think of game of baseball with scouts as the players. There are specific rules that govern the game. They are in place so that all the teams are playing the same game. A player that switches teams knows that the rules will be the same at every game for every team in his league. Now think of the rules as BSA policies and procedures. The person responsible for upholding the rules is the umpire. He works for the league for the benefit of all the teams to make sure everyone follows the same rules. In scouting we call the Umpire a Commissioner. He or she is commissioned by the BSA to uphold the polices and regulations.

 

Each team has a coaching staff, and although their style of play may vary they all have to keep within the rules of the game. Scout Leader Trainers are the heaqd coaches. If a player goes to another team even though the style of play may differ the rules are still the same rules as all other teams.

 

The plays that take place during a game are varied in combination but there are a limited set of plays. How a team handles a play varies with the coaching staff (unit leaders), but success or failure is based on measurable achievemnets. You get on base or you don't you score or you don't.

 

In scouting we have set methods that are part of the game in every troop or pack. There are different ways to combine the methods depending on the the skill level of the scouts. The game is the program of scouting. You achieve the three methods or you don't.

 

I am a commissioner and a trainer. I am responsible for making sure the teams follow the rules and for teaching them a variety of ways to employ the methods.

 

If and when posters talk about the methods of scouting, I can and have taken part in open discussion. But take a look at the vast majority of the posts on this site. Most the things discussed are policy related. There are very few posts that discuss various ways to employ the methods of scouting. So I have a responsibility when discussing the rules to say "here is what the rules are". I have never said "here is what I think the rule should be, or here are my rules". As others have pointed out I have made every effort to say "This is the rule and this is where you will find it".

 

If your opinion is different than the rule I honestly don't care!

If we were playing ball and your opinion is that it should be a 4 strikes to an out instead of three I wouln't care. You don't make rules and neither do I. You play by them and umpires uphold them.

 

The last thing I'll offer, somewhat in my defense, as far as my frustration with some posters. I'm still what I consider a young man, mid 40s, but I have been in scouting quite awhile (over 32 years). I have learned through experience that there are three kinds of leaders.

1) Leaders who don't know the program but want to learn and do things right for the scouts. I have great patience and empathy for these people because all good leaders started this way. I will take as much time as they need to help them learn to deliver a quality scouting program.

2) Leaders who know the program and use it. My responsibility to them is to keep them motivated and up to date. I have great admiration for these people because they kept their promise and work to deliver a real scouting program. These are the people who accomlish the most and form the backbone of scouting.

3) Leaders who know the program but don't use it and people who don't know it and refuse to learn it. I put them in one group because they accomplish the same result. The destroy units, chase boys from scouting and deliver false advertising by wearing the uniform of a program that thay have no intention of delivering. I have no patience for these people and a few reside on this board.

 

I have learned that no amount of urging, pleading, prodding or demanding will change them. To be blunt they waste the resources of the program and harm the name and mission of scouting. And I have no problem telling them so. These people hold on to units until they choke it to death and then blame parents, society, kids, anything but their own refusal to do the job correctly. Only 3 things end their reign, They die, the units die, or a someone trying to do it right ticks them off and they leave with big scene. Personally I only get any real satisfaction from the third.

 

Lastly I want to say that for the parents, or scouts visiting this site, or for leaders wanting to do it right. Many of the posts make it sound like this is a difficult program filled with rules and obstacles. Heavily peppered with rude kids, lousy parents and costly poor quality uniforms and a predjudiced national council. IT JUST AIN'T SO!

 

I have worked with hundreds of boys and I would let 99% marry my daughter (if I actually had one). I have found the vast majority of parents and guardians to be careing and helpful when asked correctly and given the tools to succeed. The only rules we have ever had was follow the Oath and Law and never do anything for a boy that a boy can do for himself. In the units I serve Scouts respect each other because they are respected. Parents help because they see the results we get. We don't count Eagles we measure character.

 

I enjoy my role as a resource for those who want to learn and do it right. I accept my role as the rules guy for those who choose to see me that way. I would welcome conversations on employing the methods of scouting rather than the rules. And I worry about the welfare of the program in the hands of some.

 

Your friend in scouting,

Bob White

[eisely]

A thoughtful post Bob.

[yaworski]

Sorry Bob, the sports analogy doesn't work. An umpire or referee's job isn't to enforce the rules, it is to ensure that both teams have an equal opportunity to win under the rules.

 

I umpired baseball for 20 years before I took this year off because my knees are killing me. If I enforced the rules as they are written, I'd bring the game to a standstill. I could call a balk or illegal pitch on nearly every pitch from the windup position but I don't. No one does. Why? It does no one any favors and stops the game.

 

In basketball, if you called every carry the game would be all whistles so you only call them when the player gains an advantage. Why? Because the game would not be improved by whistling a carry in the backcourt with all five defenders 60 feet away in the front court. Likewise, you don't call 3 seconds on a player who is in the key for 3.5 seconds but is now moving out.

 

Likewise, the game of Scouting is not improved by worrying about rules that have nothing to do with the playing of the game. So what if Cub Scout don't wear the same neckerchief? Does it impact their learning how to use hand tools? Does it impact a boy's character development if he wears a pair of OD trousers from Old Navy instead of a pair of "official" Scout trousers.

 

 

 

[Venturer2002]

A ref or ump wouldn't stop a game for every improper pitch or each ball carry. But a good ref or ump also wouldn't let another player crack someone else upside the head with a bat.

 

What I'm trying to say is the role (at least in my opinion) of any adult advisor is to step back and let the kids play the game. so what if one or two things aren't done 100% in accordance with every last written guideline?

 

If the kids in a game, or scouting activity, were to endanger the lives, mental health, or personal property of another than an adult official would step in. If you spend time stopping a scout because he isn't wearing his uniform pants when he is supposed to be learning hurry cases than aren't you being more detrimental to the program as a whole?

 

As far as I know none of the cubs I've seen have been damaged by wearing an unofficial neckerchief. Surely it isn't kosher (secular sense), but if you put more of an emphasis on these things you're not accomplishing the ideals of scouting.

 

[Bob White]

Sorry, I was trying to make a parrallel that everyone could understand. i guess i picked a bad one. I'll try another.

 

For this to be a national program it needs everyone's copoperation. The purpose of which is to give all scouts the benefit odf the best possible program. The volunteers and staff of the BSA have tested and developed these programs and program elements over 90 plus years.

 

We all agreed as volunteers and charter organizations to follow those rules and regulations. We have a responsibility as "leaders" to lead!

 

I would hope that in your lives you follow the rules in your communities and not just the rules you like. I would hope you would want the scouts in the units you serve to follow the rules of your unit not just the rules that they like.

 

By picking and choosing the parts of the program you will adhere to you set a self destructive pattern for the scouts you serve and the program you claim to represent.

 

There are many parts of the scouting progrm that allows for local customization. But the rules governing Safety, uniform and advancement are not for local variation. They are the elements that protect our members and define and identify the program.

 

I hope that for most this is a clearer explaination.

 

Bob White

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[yaworski]

"The volunteers and staff of the BSA have tested and developed these programs and program elements over 90 plus years."

 

I was going to say something but your comments are worth it.

 

 

[yaworski]

That should have read:

 

"The volunteers and staff of the BSA have tested and developed these programs and program elements over 90 plus years."

 

I was going to say something but your comments aren't worth it.

[FScouter]

Venture2002 - you said it exactly right regarding the unofficial neckerchief. "... if you put more of an emphasis on these things you're not accomplishing the ideals of scouting." So why not just go with the correct neckerchief and spend one's energy delivering a quality program instead of tinkering with the official uniform?