Problem leader changed to another pack, I need help

[SctDad]

OK first off, I have to let you know that a leader was removed pending legal matters in a domestic case that I witnessed on a camping trip that was not scout related. He also made threatening comments towards me (Yes he was VERY intoxicated)

 

Anyway, the Committee chose to temporariy remove him pending the outcome of his court case. He basicaly dropped off the planet until last week, when called and said that neither he, his wife (who we just paid to be a den leader) or his son would be coming back. That he would be taking his step-son to another pack.

 

The issue is, this is a pack that we have gone camping with and I work on district committees with several of the leaders. How do I approach this when they ask me about him?

 

Or do I keep my mouth shut and let them have the problems that I am sure that he will bring to their unit because he refuses to change. Or do I be honest and tell them the things that I know and saw first hand.

 

If he does become a leader there, I just know that he is going to give them the same problems.

 

Is there anything I should do. I have tried to contact my DE, but she has been real busy this past week. Or do I just shut up.

 

Sorry wrong topic board(This message has been edited by SctDad)

[Apache Bob]

Tell the truth. You have Cubs that are going to be coming in contact with him. You owe them and their parents the information they need.

Contact the DE now. I am sure the safety of the Scouts is a number one on the DE's list. If not the DE then go higher up.

[SctDad]

Just to clarify;

 

The incident that involved the acohol did not happen during a scout activity. It was thought that it would be a good idea that our two families went camping together. I guess that was a bad thought.

 

He is mostly angry with me because I caled the law when he got into a physical altercation with his wife. She dropped the charges a month later.

 

My question is, what do I tell the recieving unit if they ask me about him? I understand that the only thing that I can tell them is what I saw personally. Do I, or do I let it go.

[Twocubdad]

I think there are enough pluses and minuses that you can justify doing what you want. Peronally, I would feel like I owe it to the other pack to give them a head's up.

 

If that's what you want to do I would suggest that you not discuss the situation with the other leaders or even the DE. Doing so could be considered slander. I would suggest providing a copy of the arrest report to the other unit leaders and your Scout Executive. Arrest records are public records so there's much less liability on you part. If you have a attorney who will answer a quick question for you, I'd run it by him or her.

 

No I'm not an attorney, but if I'm paranoid, it's only because I've been down that trail

[dg98adams]

If the incident did not happen on a Scout outing, why would you report it to anyone in Scouting? I think you have no business "providing a police report".

 

If your comm. removed him pending a court case, then that is all that needs to be known.

[nldscout]

At this point, you should say nothing. I take from your message that he was never convicted of anything. If he was convicted of a crime, then that should be reported to the council, because they are still registered with you and until a transfer takes place still on your charter. If he has not been convicted of anything then he is innocent and unless specifically asked you should not say anything. If asked just say that he was suspended by the Pack for unacceptable behaviour and if they want to know more then they should ask him directly. As to being sued for slander, not gonna happen if he was arrested and you keep your comments strickly to the facts.

[scoutldr]

It's not slander if it's true...but it could cost you and your CO a fortune in legal fees to successfully defend yourself.

 

"She dropped the charges a month later."

 

And that's why these guys continue to get away with it.

[Horizon]

Personally, I would mention it over a cup of coffee with the DE. Your involvment at that point is finished IMHO.

 

 

[prof]

SctDad,

Not trying to sidetrack this thread, especially as you are getting many good viewpoints, but I'm not sure what you mean by this

 

his wife (who we just paid to be a den leader)

 

Is your pack paying people to be den leaders?

Prof.

[Eamonn]

Couple of things that I don't understand.

 

"She dropped the charges a month later." ?

Maybe the guys who know more about these matters than I do, can help me out.

I thought that once a crime had been committed and a person charged with that crime, what happens next is up to the officers of the court? Not a person?

I can see how a wife might refuse to testify, but if the police have evidence of a crime aren't they supposed to bring this matter to a court who will then take what ever action it deems as being right?

 

I also really don't understand:

"(who we just paid to be a den leader)"

I have never heard of a Den Leader being paid?

Is this just some type of a mistake?

 

Here is my take on what you posted:

Your family and this other family went away on a camping trip. This trip was non-scouting related. Other than the fact that you are both adult leaders in the BSA.

While on this trip this guy had a few too many alcoholic drinks.

For some reason this husband and wife had some sort of nasty disagreement. Which was nasty enough that you felt the need to call the police.

The guy was upset at you and threatened you.

"the Committee chose to temporary remove him pending the outcome of his court case."

 

Since it now seems that there isn't going to be a court case?

What would have happened if he had not opted to join another unit?

In the eyes of the law, he has done no wrong.

I can and do see why you would be upset.

I can see that the two of you might not want to work together.

 

I owned and operated a couple of bars for over 15 years.

I have witnessed the nicest guys in the world become real pains in the tail area, once they have had a few.

The next day they are back to being nice guys.

I would hope that this fellow doesn't drink around Scouts or at Scouting functions?

He might need help of some kind? But until he accepts that he needs help, nothing is going to do much good.

 

I am having a problem with:

"If he does become a leader there, I just know that he is going to give them the same problems."

How do you know?

Heck, not so long ago you and him were going away for the weekend on a camping trip together!

I know that I don't go away for the weekend with people I don't like!

If I were you.

I'd be very careful what I say to others about him.

As I see it - Which might be wrong. All you have is your word against his and anything you say might be seen as gossip and maybe worse.

Eamonn.

 

 

 

[CalicoPenn]

"Pay for her to be Den leader" - I read this as the Pack paid her registration fees - some Packs do pay the registration fees for Den Leaders.

 

What makes this man a "problem leader"? Has he stolen money or equipment from the Pack? Has he been uncooperative with the other adult leaders? Has he made promises and failed to keep them? His domestic issue, where charges were dropped, is a personal matter, and has nothing to do with the Pack. I'm not surprised that the family is leaving your Pack - the fact that someone felt it necessary to go to the Pack committee and air out the families laundry would be reason enough, even if the person doing so thought s/he was doing the right thing. It's likely that they left with a mixture of anger and embarrassment - anger that the Pack Committee felt the righteous need (and I mean this in the negative) to suspend him and embarrassement over the entire incident itself. I'm sure they want to spend as little time with you as you want to spend with them at this point.

 

Say nothing - if asked, speak of his Scouting record - leave the personal out - it's none of their business, and it's none of yours anymore either.

[prof]

Calico,

That makes sense! Thanks for clearing it up!

Steve

[SctDad]

Paid her to be a DL - Yes we paid her registration. Hoping that would help motivate her.

 

As for what I should do. I will talk to our DE. She can probably give me guidance.

 

I understand slander and lible laws. So I would only speak of things that I saw first hand and not what I heard.

 

He holds the grudge against me for his arrest. I fet what I did was in the right. I will not make excuses for my phone call.

 

I also guess I will leave it at where it is. I am pretty sure that if he does apply for a leader position, they will probably contact me and ask about it. I will talk with my DE about what I can say, but not talk to them until they ask.

 

Does that sound like the right thing?

[SSScout]

Sctdad: If you witnessed a physical assault, you did the right thing. Since the arresting officer did not witness the assault him/herself, it was up to the assaulted party to bring charges. Then the officer would arrest the assaulter (dad?) on the charge of the assaultee (mom?). Matters not his alcohol level, still his hands doing the assault. Surprise! He cannot use alcohol to excuse his actions, they are still his actions. You would be called to court to give testimony as to what you saw.

If she withdraws her charges, then, no case, he is not brought to trial, he has no conviction record.

If they are married long enough to be parents, especially step children, the suspicion is that this may NOT be the first such physical abuse in their relationship, and it probably won't be the last. Especially if she first brings charges and then withdraws them. I'll not go into the dynamics of spousal abuse here.

What if you had witnessed such an incident in the grocery store? Does it make a difference that the drunk dad is a friend/Scout person?

Talk to other Pack? Ummm, not unless they ask. And then I would be of the opinion to first ask the other Pack what they had been told. And only limit your answer to what you KNOW of the family's participation in Cub Scouting. Say you would rather not comment further. But be ready to, it will come up again.

Speak to the DE? Yes. Make sure he understands the full situation, he has a responsibilty to keep things confidential. Nothing has been "proved" as of yet, but chances are , they will be.

This is about the kids, right? How can you benefit the boy and help the mother and help the dad see his responsibilty?

If you were friends with this dad before, draw on that connection and pray alittle about the right way to approach him. Is there a mutual friend you can ask to help? Can your wife speak to the other? Make sure she knows she has a friend to turn to if necessary?

 

It ain't gonna be easy, and the boy will suffer no matter what you do or don't do. The boy already has suffered, yes? I assume he was on the camp trip and saw the assault too, I would guess.

No boy should witness his dad (EVEN a stepdad) assault his mom.

 

Spousal abuse is a great challenge to our charge to KiSMiF.

God guide you, my friend.

 

 

[Eagle92]

Don't envy you or the situation. You need to thik long and hard about it AND think of the consequences. I say consequences because even if you think you are doign right, there will be conmsequences. Kinda like Newton's Third Law: for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.