current CM to become TroopMaster, to a boy-led BoyScout troop from CubScouts

[Exibar]

I've been CM for the past 4 years now, and I'm finding that come crossover when my boy crosses over the local troop wants me as TroopMaster. This is all well and good, and I'm happy to take on this role.

But, the troop is boy-led, probably the most boy-led troop I've ever seen or heard of. The adults basically just sit back and let the boys do everything, even to the point of major failure. Many of my past Webelos scouts want to leave the troop because of this, there is ZERO guidance from the current leaders. I feel that the boys need guidance, either from the older scouts or from the adult leaders.

 

I"m sure that there are others here in the same situation, or that have gone through this. I'm seeking advise from others that have gone through this, but I'll take any web links, or guides as well.

I have until March next year, and I plan on attending some of the current boyscout meetings to get the feel for the way they do things. I'm already getting a ton of feedback from the parents and boys that have crossed over in the past 4 years, and I have a great relationship with most of the Adult leaders in the BS troop.

I'm also planning on asking the boys about their thoughts of Boy-Scouts. Trying to be as general as possible as I don't want my question to bias their answer in any way. I just need the facts of what's going on, and how I can help the Troop be as successful as possible.

 

I don't want to start a thread on the merits of adult lead or boy-lead troops, there are plenty of those already. I just need help with the transition :-)

 

thanks all!

Mike B

[nolesrule]

I would suggest you take the Scoutmaster training offered in your council before you take over as scoutmaster, if possible. It'll help give you a frame of reference, and you'll be able to better put into context the feedback you have gotten and will get before you're on the job.

 

Beyond that, you picked a good place to ask your questions. Welcome!

[kbandit]

I would certainly go on a campout with the troop and see what goes on there. I would become an Asst. Scoutmaster right now attend meetings, trainings, committee meetings. Sit in on Scoutmaster conferences and if possible a board of review or two. Just as an observer.

 

Scouts need to learn "how to fail" and deal with the outcome. Life is full of failures one kind or another. Learn from less than ideal outcome.

 

One of the duties of a leader is to make sure everything can be as safe as possible.

 

Things will not run perfectly everytime. There will be bumps in the plans. All part of the adventure.

 

I think the big adjustment for you as well as it has been for alot of us leaders is letting our "little boys" plan and do for themselves. This is how they become leaders.

 

When something does not go according to the plan ask what could have been done differently instead of telling them how it could have been done.

 

Sure scouts and parents would rather have someone plan everything and do. Less work and effort for everyone else. Please don't go in and try to change the boy led troop. Find out if it's a lack of knowledge that leads to less than ideal outcomes and teach from there.

 

You stated that the adults sit back even to the point of major failure What was the major failure??

 

I have 20 yr old Eagle and 14 yr old Life 2 MB's (PM and FL)& project.

[Pack212Scouter]

This is a very touchy subject, however a very important one. Many units, icluding our own troop have forgotten that "boy led" does not mean "boy run". The whole purpose of adult leaders is not only to ensure safety, but to provide adult mentorship. This is a very important difference. Allowing them to fail in something that they instist on planning poorly is one thing, but to sit back and allow for something to fail because you do not provide them with the knowledge or tools for the job is a failure of the adult leader. Rember that these are boys, in many cases very young boys. They cannot be expected to be able to lead efficiently without some adult mentorship. Continued failure from lack of this is harmful to the boy's development and to the troop.

 

Our own troop is facing the impact of this issue for the first time in many years. The adults have sat back and let the boys flounder to the point that the troop is losing current Scouts; and for the first time in many years, the majority of our Webelos do not want to cross over because they are hearing from siblings and friends in the troop that it is boring and with the exception of campouts and hikes, the troop doesn't do anything fun.(This message has been edited by Pack212scouter)

[Crew21_Adv]

Exibar,

 

Greetings!

 

 

It sounds like you've identified some traits. Youth Leadership, but no Adult Association.

 

Fellow forum members have stated it. Scouts may learn from some of their mistakes, but they will not learn from constant mistakes or chaos. Having no program at all, will drive them away from Scouting.

 

You've seemed to just ask for help with the transition. And also how to revive an active program in the troop.

 

In no particular order, here are a few of my recommendations.

 

I would start now, long before March. Begin with their Annual Planning Seminar. Find out what they want to do throughout the year, where they want to camp, what merit badges to introduce. nolesrule has recommended you to attending Scoutmaster Specifics, also you should attend the district Boy Scout Roundtable and their troop's PLC meetings.

 

Others have endorsed training, I would encourage attending Wood Badge and send your SPL and PLs to NYLT.

 

Our PLCs have the boys lead and discussing monthly themes, with the adult SM/ASM asking permission to comment maybe a 1/4 up to 1/3 of the time. The Scouts in my troop have some good ideas, but they need to be prompted on steps to reach their monthly goals. If they just can't figure out what needs to be done, then the SM/ASM will offer recommendations.

 

Also, getting buy in from the ASMs and Troop Committee, on planning and communications.

 

Another issue to develop early, would be how your troop's communications should flow. Parents will not go to their Scout to ask them what needs to be done for the campout. They will go direct line of sight to the Scoutmaster.

 

Although, the Scoutmaster should know the entire calendar down to the minute, the Scouts should be communicating with the Patrol Leader and Senior Patrol Leader. You may want to tell the parents to ask their Scout first, then to contact you.

 

Finally, Scout thru First Class is outdoor intensive. If they are not camping in the first few months, they will not advance and they will lose interest in the program. (I call the social Scouts. They are there for the friendship of their classmates, but nothing more.) I would prepare your Webelos parents for all the new Scouts to attend Summer Camp next summer. I would encourage them to purchase camping gear for Christmas and Birthdays. If only one out of eight new Scouts attends Summer camp, then you may have lost an entire patrol by the next year. Attempt a ratio of seven out of eight new Scouts to attend camp.

 

 

Good Luck in the transition.

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

 

[Eagle92]

You need balance. Yes adults need to mentor and advise, BUT the youth do need the freedom to plan and execute activities, AND FAIL. The patrol method is truly "Organized chaos"

 

My advice would be to become an ASM NOW, get training NOW, and start workgin with the youth NOW. That way the older scouts are comfortable with you, as you need to work through them.

 

Sit in on those SM conferences, do go camping. SIT IN on the PLC and observe the first go around.

 

Once you do become the SM, USE THE PLC and work through them. make sure they are trained and have the KSAs to run the meetings and activities.

 

Good luck

[Eagle92]

Another thing, Webelos and their parents need to be informed CONSTANTLY that Boy Scouts is completely different than CS, and that the BS need to be BOY LED and that they WILL MAKE MISTAKES. I've already started the process by talkig a little about differences between CS and BS with the parent of the tigers I have.

[scoutldr]

As long as you understand that the PRIMARY role of the SM is to train the youth leaders to run the troop. He/she is the primary mentor to the SPL, who in turn mentors and trains the ASPL(s) and PLs. But, yes, the BOYS run the troop. They do the planning and the execution. And deal with the consequences of their decisions. Safety is always important, and should be a key consideration of the planning process.

 

BTW, the term is "Scoutmaster". Troopmaster is a software program for managing troop records. ;-)

[Eagledad]

Have you camped with the troop? For that matter, have you watched a troop meeting? I'm courious why the troop is asking someone that isn't a member of the troop to take over the leadership.

 

Barry

[Exibar]

Thank you everyone for the advise and information. Please keep it coming, it's helping more than you guys know!

 

I will be attending upcoming Patrol meetings, and Committee meetings and plan on being more active with the Troop than in the past. I've always had a good relationship with the troop as CubMaster and I'm looking forward to taking on this new role. But I want to make sure that the boys get the the leadership from the adults that they deserve and need. But, not so much that the adults are leading everything.

 

Pack212scouter you hit it right on target to my feelings. The troop should be boy-lead, but not boy-run. The adults shouldn't just sit back and watch the kids do whatever for an hour during the patrol meetings then head home. Much like a good Director would handle his employees, he should guide the boys to the right direction, ask them questions like "what are your patrol's objectives this month".

I'm currently hearing more and more from parents. I dont' know all the answers but some things just seem not right to me.

 

I'm going to go ahead and enroll in the ScoutMaster training to get the basics down. BoyScouts surely is a different world than the CubScout pack, that's for sure!

 

Mike B

[Eagle92]

Exibar,

The key is to work through your SPL, not your PLs. You should ask him the questions, and he should be able to give you answers. If not, then he needs to encouraged to find out.

 

Again Train the SPL who will then train the PLs

[Crew21_Adv]

Exibar,

 

Greetings again.

 

 

I'd like to present a few additional comments.

 

My own troop has what we call organized chaos, but that is vastly different from total chaos. I guess it depends on perception and how a troop is viewed.

 

At a one second snapshot, our troop may not look like a meeting; but over an hour and a half you will see opening, some skill development (around the monthly theme), patrol corners, a game (that usually reinforces the skill), then closing and Scoutmasters minute.

 

A year ago, we had an 11 y/o boy and his mother visit; they spent about 1 minute at one of our meetings, and she ran for the door. I think she burnt rubber getting out of the parking lot. Regardless if the young boy had friends in our troop, with one minute of viewing, the mother was definitely not happy. Other families that visit for the entire meeting see that we have a program. Not a perfect program, and most of the Scouts are learning and advancing, but it is still a program.

 

When my family came to my current troop, we visited about four neighborhood troops and we were promised the world. We selected the best troop out of four. After about two months, I noticed that the PLC really wanted a five minute opening and an hour and twenty-five minute dodge ball game. Every week. Some parents were happy that their sons came home, took a shower and went to bed early. Other parents were disappointed that there was no advancement and no program.

 

The new Scoutmaster (still our current SM) and Assistant Scoutmasters were a little too relaxed and let the boys have a boy run dodge ball tourney each week. While 2 or 3 boys out of 35 worked on a merit badge. The Scoutmaster knew what to do, and where he wanted to guide the troop and PLC but he needed assistance from the ASMs and Troop Committee.

 

It took about six months, and some disagreements on the Committee and some disagreements on the PLC. But we moved to 45 minutes of skills and academics, and 45 minutes of recreation games. Then over the next six months, we moved to 60 minutes of skills and academics and 30 minutes of game.

 

For the past few years, we have about an hour and 15 minutes of skill development, and now we have a game that reinforces the skill at the last 15 minutes of the meeting. My troop is not perfect. But we are pretty darn good. We have a high advancement results throughout the year, a low drop rate, and a few Eagle Scouts each year. This Summer we even attended two different summer camps.

 

Over the years, when the visiting Webelos saw this transition (a combination of education and recreation in our meetings) they starting transferring into our troop very frequently.

 

Exibar stated "I'm currently hearing more and more from parents. I don't know all the answers but some things just seem not right to me."

 

Probably the current Scoutmaster of your troop has a different leadership style. I would say there is nothing bad about it, but it could improve. The current Scoutmaster may have been the right man(woman) for the job, at the right time. But now (or in March), it may be time for a change. Not only a role model or someone with personality, but a person that will coach and advise (like has been commented about in this forum).

 

Probably the best measuring stick of a troop, which is in actual writing is the Unit Commissioners Worksheet, and the Troop/Team Self Assessment form. If you can grade them in about the 75 percent positive range, I would personally say they are a good troop.

 

As you set your vision and goals, and you communicate you vision and goals to the PLC and Committee, and also measure your SMART goals, maybe the some things just seem not right to me will turn around and appear successful.

 

As the new Scoutmaster you will probably hear even more and more from parents (both positive and negative). Parents will be the first one to tell you they dropped their son off at the wrong place, 30 minutes before a program was due to start on the other side of town (because they didnt receive an email from the Patrol Leader), but theyll be the last to apologize after you waited three hours in a hot parking lot with your son and their son. But the pros should outweigh the cons.

 

Take a report card (Unit Commissioners Worksheet and Troop/Team Self Assessment) with you to a few troop meetings, and see if you can develop a plan for next year.

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

 

[Twocubdad]

This is exactly the situation I found myself in six years ago. My older son chose our current troop because he thought the other troop was run by the adults, which was true. Problem was, the troop he joined was just as you described. I call it Boy-Led-Into-The-Ground.

 

The Senior Patrol Leader was a really great kid, but he was essentially little more than emcee for troop meetings. Meetings began by deciding between Dodge Ball or British Bulldog for the evening's progra. Many campouts were cancelled, usually due to lack of adults, but often because we would get to the week of the campout and no one had made any plans what so ever. Advancement was no problem as one lady was counselor for all 12 Eagle-required merit badges. She met with the Scouts during troop meetings for merit badge classes. In my first 18 months with the troop, the Patrol Leader Council met once that I remember, but maybe twice. We were neither Scout-led nor adult-led. Our problems was there was a leadership vacuum and no real Scout program.

 

Boys don't come out of the womb knowing how to lead a Boy Scout troop. They must be taught. In an ideal situation, the older Scouts teach the younger Scouts how to do things. But more often, especially in a turnabout situation, the adults must do the teaching.

 

The advice to observe and study the troop is sound. Is the troop really youth-led now, or is that just an excuse for the adults to do nothing? Why, specifically, are the boys failing? Would some simple planning and management techniques -- like using the troop meeting and campout planning worksheets -- solve the problem? Or are the problems deeper? If failure has become a habit, have the Scouts given up trying? That's a tougher turn-around. Are the adult leaders ready for a change and behind you, or do they think everything is fine and are looking for someone to maintain the status quo?

.

Your number one job between now and March is to develop a vision for what you want the troop to be. What do you want the troop to be known for? A heavy emphasis on nights camping? High adventure and backpacking or more traditional Scoutcraft/pioneer camping? Maybe a greater emphasis on community service than camping?

 

One thing I observed about our troop prior to my becoming SM was it seemed every campout was the first time we had ever been camping. No systems, no routine, no standing assignments. Everyone just milled about until one of the adults started shouting instructions and/or doing the work himself. My vision for the troop was to be able to go on a campout as a well-oiled machines whith the Scouts all knowing what to do and getting it done with little effort. To do that I knew we needed to camp more. Looking back on it, what I really wanted was a Scout-led troop -- one where the older Scouts were involved and had the competence to run things without the adults being involved. (The noise you're hearing is a big "DUH" from the rest of the crowd.)

 

That's not going to happen overnight. Now, six years in the troop and four as SM, I'm just now seeing a troop which operates that way. What I know now is a big part of that is maturity and experience on the part of the youth leaders. I think it is rare for young Scouts to truely be effective leader of their peers. Not only do you have to grow the leaders, but the rest of the troop needs to learn to be good followers. The Scouts need to enough experience to understand that following the leader makes life easier. When new Scouts first join a troop, their life experience is that might makes right. Everyone who has ever been in charge them has always been at least 20 years older, a two feet tall and has the ability to punish them if they don't follow instruction. Other kids who try to take charge are just "bossy" and not seen as a leader. My observation is that it is very difficult for a boy to learn to follow the leadership of a peer.

 

All of which takes time on a generational scale. I am just now getting through my first generation with the troop. The is only one Scout who was in the troop when I joined and he is three months from 18. The boys from my old Cub den now earn or almost earned Eagle and moving into their "elder statesman" status in the troop. Tonight is SPL/PL election. The boys who will be leading the troop starting tonight crossed over after I took the troop and they have never had a SM other than me. While I have begun to see cycles and pattern from year to year, something new comes along every day. Hopefully, in another six or eight years I'll get it figured out!