General thoughts

[evmori]

This is a great topic.

 

One thing I think we all forget is we are all located in different areas (rural, urban, suburbs, etc.) and this has a lot to do with our retention rates. There are more programs (sports, academic, etc.) for boys to join in urban & suburban areas than in rural areas. Kids will try something & if they don't like it, they will quit. While I don't condone quitting something without seeing it through I realize this happens. If units only retain 50% of the boys that join their unit that is 50% more than they had. I don't feel this is an indication of a poorly run unit. There can be many other circumstances that are unknown.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

I live in a rural area. We are in the middle of corn country. There isn't a sport, school activity, extra curricular activity, social or community activity for scout eligible youth in your area that we don't have here. The same could be said for most rural areas in today's society.

 

It's funny because when I was a scout and my mother was a den leader coach, she tells me that the smaller packs in our suburban town used the same excuse. This was in the 60's and several packs in our town had 40 or 50 Cubs. Our Pack had 145.

 

As a cubmaster in a rural area in Upstate New York in the 90's we had a dozen or so packs many in the 30s and 40s. The Pack I served had over 90 and we were not the largest (we were 2nd). They to had all the activities you could find in a urban or suburban area. So its not alternate activities and its not luck, It's the strength and quality of the program you deliver, pure and simple.

 

So you'll need to find something else to blame it on. When a units use of scout methods improve their retention improves.

 

Bob White

[evmori]

Bob,

Cubs are different than Boy Scouts. Cub Packs are usually larger. When I was a Cubmaster, we had 50+ in the Pack. Not all the 2nd Year Webelos went on to Boy Scouts. And the ones that did went to different Troops in the area.

 

A lot of kids who crossover to Boy Scouts don't like the program or their parents don't like the program & they drop out. And I don't mean the individual unit program I mean the BSA program in general. This doesn't mean the individual unit has a bad program. There are other reasons for boys dropping out of Scouting that the Troop or Pack they join being a (in your eyes) "Bad" unit.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

But Ed, if the packs in a community keep lots of boys for 3 1/2 years, and they join a troop and half leave the first year it's not conflicting activitites. It's the same schools, the same community, the same program choices they had as cubs. In addition not all the troops in the community lose half their scouts. So what's the difference. Program!

If you have a scout that earned his Arrow of Light, joins a troop and quits in less than 1 year, it's not that he doesn't like scouting. The problem is that the troop he joins isn't scouting.

Are there exceptions, sure, but if I put money on it being the delivery of the scouting program I would win more often than not.

Boys don't leave scouting, boys leave when they don't get scouting.

 

Bob White

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[evmori]

Bob,

You can't make the assumption that the only reason boys quit Scouting is because of the program. Some boys who do great in Cubs don't make it in Boy Scouts because they (or their parents) aren't ready for move to Boy Scouts. It has nothing to do with the program. I'm having a hard time trying to explain this. Could be because I just got back from the beach last night. Would someone please give me a hand?

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

I welcome others opinions but remember, I have already agreed there are occasional exceptions. My point has been when you are losing members in the kinds of numbers that have been discussed here, 40 to 50% and greater on a regular basis, that is a red flag that there are serious problems in that units program.

 

Bob(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Twocubdad]

Sounds to me as if you guys are arguing two sides of the same coin. In our pack -- and I can't really speak to Boy Scouts -- the vast majority of boys who drop out do so due to some combination of other interests and a lack of parental interest and support.

 

Many of the boys (read parents)who drop out decide to concentrate on something else. These are often boys who excel in a sport and choose to focus on that. This usually starts with the Bear and Webelos-aged boys as they move into more competitive leagues.

 

The second largest group are boys (read parents) who are justs shopping. "We did Cub Scouts this year, we think we'll try soccer this fall."

 

The last quarter leave for a variety of reason, including that they just don't like Scouts.

 

I'm not suggesting that we run the perfect program or that none of the drop-outs are "out fault." Admittedly, from time-to-time we've had weak den leaders and have lost boys due to them. But we do run a good program. Our philosophy is, we set a nice table, anyone who wants to eat is welcome. Sure, I hate to see a boy drop out, but in most cases, it's not a decision we control.

[OldGreyEagle]

We have read a lot about a 50 percent drop out rate or so from programs assesed to be "good" by the leaders of the program, and here is a thought. Instead of explaining away the reasons, has any troop done a retention study. Actually asked the boys why they quit? And the asking being done by a scout, not an adult. If you are right, you have your proof and all is well, if you are wrong, you will know the exact particulars.

 

BTW, just for kicks, the people who admit the 50 percent drop out rate, do you have a minimum attendance policy?

[Double Eagle]

From the front door of my tent.

 

Bob, maybe the big difference between the programs is the cause. In Cubs, the adults plan and resource the program. The Cubs have very little to do with what activities they do or don't do. Scouts, as you know, has the PLC (youth elected leaders) planning the program. Often times my way of fun and theirs differ, but its their program. Don't think that they get to do whatever they want and we are just there. Guidance and advice is always there.

 

Having two teenage scouts, I think that I can kinda speak about the teenage mind. As Cubs, its easy to keep them occupied with cubs and at that age they really like to do all the cub stuff. As hormones and "know-it-allism" take control, parents aren't as smart as the kids, according to the kids. What used to be interesting, changes to the opposite sex, other activities, being cool, even to the point of being in scouts is not cool.

 

Having been there as a youth, and in both programs as an adult, Scouts are more difficult to deal with than Cubs. I think more character development occurs in the teenage years than Cub years.

 

[sctmom]

Twocubdad writes:

"The second largest group are boys (read parents) who are justs shopping. "We did Cub Scouts this year, we think we'll try soccer this fall."

 

 

I have seen a lot of this. Also I saw a lot of parents say at the end of Webelos "Well we did the Cub Scout thing and have decided not to do Boy Scouts". The two are seen as different programs. Webelos and Arrow of Light are seen as the end of the line. This is most likely due to our Webelos not being involved with a troop like they should have been.

 

[Bob White]

sctmom,

We are not talking about Webelos who choose not to go into Boy Scouts. We are looking at some troops that lose 50% of Boy Scouts in the same community as troops who keep all their new scouts. Can it be that the activity shoppers all joined the same troop? I don't thinks so.

 

Sure from time to time a boy will leave for a variety of reasons. But we have poster here who claim a 40 to 50% loss on a regular basis. There is only one reason for that. It is that the unit is not delivering a scout program.

 

The change in teenage mentality is a good example. The Boy Scout program is designed to accomodate that developmental stage. If the troop is using the patrol method and doing the activities the boys choose under boy leadership you will fill the need for independance and self determination that a young person is feeling.

 

I realize that this revelation hits home in a personal way with some leaders. Especially those who basically run one man shows. If you set yourself up as the person "in charge" realizing that kids are leaving not due to other activities or parental support (or any other excuse you've become comfortable with), but because you are not using the scouting program, it probably bruises the ego.

 

Bob White

[Stan Riddle]

Just some observations on why they drop out.

Swimming- some are afraid of water, and WON'T learn to swim..

Immaturity - some just are afraid of all that outdoor stuff.

Program structure - Cubs often do fun things like skits, games, playing, and just hanging out, that often don't fit into many Troop programs.

Time - not just sports, but other activities. As boys get older, they do have more choices in activities. Ans we know that sports teams put more emphasis on being at practice and activites as they get older.

Parental support - not just their time, but camping equipment is expensive. Some don't want to invest.

Leadership - we often make the transition look like some great rite of passage, and we expect little boys to grow into young men while they are "walking over that bridge". Sometimes, we forget that they are still kids who likes doing the same things they did on the other side of the bridge.

 

What do y'all think?

[Bob White]

Kids will not let go of things that they enjoy the most. If you are losing a large percentage of new scouts or have a lot of scouts leaving at 16 it's because you are not delivering the program.

 

I can accept that a unit loses a scout from time to time. but if you are experiencing drop off rates like some of these posters are saying they have, it's your program. The longer you give them excuses to hide behind, Parents, sports, can't swim, stone in my shoe, sun in my eyes...the longer it's going to take for them to realize...it's their lack of a scouting program!

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[sctmom]

"Swimming- some are afraid of water, and WON'T learn to swim.. "

Shouldn't the troop help the boy learn why he needs to learn basic swimming skills?

 

"Immaturity - some just are afraid of all that outdoor stuff. "

Is that immaturity or lack of examples? It has been my experience that kids who see adults enjoying the outdoors, will do the same. Those that hear "eewww dirt, bugs, yuck" will do the same.

 

"Program structure - Cubs often do fun things like skits, games, playing, and just hanging out, that often don't fit into many Troop programs. "

I thought Troop programs were supposed to include these things. I would quit too if I'm not having fun and getting to socialize.

 

"Time - not just sports, but other activities. As boys get older, they do have more choices in activities. Ans we know that sports teams put more emphasis on being at practice and activites as they get older. "

This is where being flexible about attendance is needed. Some boys will disappear from scouting during football or baseball season. But you shouldn't someone point them to the Sports merit badge to show them they can have both sports and scouting?

 

 

"Parental support - not just their time, but camping equipment is expensive. Some don't want to invest."

Depends on the troop. Our troop does not require anything from the boy to camp except a bag to put clothes in and a sleeping bag. If the family cannot afford this, see the scoutmaster, there is a fund to help with this. Plus all the proceeds from popcorn sale goes to the boy's account, he can then buy the equipment he needs. We have a blessed troop.

 

"Leadership - we often make the transition look like some great rite of passage, and we expect little boys to grow into young men while they are "walking over that bridge". Sometimes, we forget that they are still kids who likes doing the same things they did on the other side of the bridge. "

This is very true. Even 15 year old's are still kids. This is apparently an area that is hard for most adults to deal with. It takes more time and effort to have a troop that is for 11 year olds and 17 year olds, but as Bob White has pointed out the resources are there in the BSA program.

 

 

 

[Rooster7]

Some questions (some sarcastic and some not):

 

Could it possibly be that these boys are individuals?

 

Could it possibly be that no matter how good the BSA program is, that some individuals simply decide its time to do something else?

 

Could it be the combination of many factors can cause a high dropout rate?

 

Could it be that Cub Scouts, who enjoy the creature comforts of home, don't like spending as much time in the woods as they first thought?

 

Could it be that the camping aspect alone is enough to drive a lot of boys away (i.e., bugs, no running toilets, humidity, heat, cold, rain, no TV, no electronics, scared of the dark, away from mom and dad, etc.)?

 

Could it be that some folks move?

 

Could it be that some parents just refuse to do what is good for their own kid? Some kids quit everything and mom & dad never questions why.

 

Could it be that there are circumstances in and around a troop that are beyond the knowledge and control of the adult leaders?

 

Could it be that some of the boys are guilty of bad leadership and the younger boys just aren't smart enough to vote for someone else?

 

I feel it is pretty arrogant to label a troop as "poorly run" without any knowledge of the people (boys, parents, and leaders) and/or their circumstances. I feel this criticism is unfair even if the dropout rate is high year to year. There are thousands of troops. There must be all sorts of differences which no one individual could possibly take into account.

 

I realize that some people will point to these questions and label them as more excuses. Yet, I think reasonable people realize that a high dropout rate and a badly run troop are not necessarily synonymous. By all means, it's worth investigating. Adults and boys alike should do a regular self-examination. Nevertheless, the answer isn't always going to be a bad program.

 

Of course, having said the above, I'm sure I will be accused of either burying my head in the sand, or providing an excuse for those folks who want to, or perhaps as someone who prefers a bad program. I don't feel any of these are true. I simply believe that they are so many variables involved that a high dropout is possible even in a well-run troop.