What happens when a scout is held back at school?

[packbrain]

Hi, I hope you can help our pack out. One of our younger scouts is being retained in school. Our trainer for our district was very adamant at CLS that if a scout is held back in school he should re-do his scouting year and participate in a denner position and "re-earn" his rank, so he will be with his classmates. We questioned this at training, but were told that's how it is...first graders are tigers, etc...and this saves problems when it's time to transition to a troop, because he'll only be finishing 4th grade (but elligible for AOL in March of 4th grade.) On the other hand if he's already earned his Tiger, his advancement to his next rank should not be dependent on his school grade.

As a DL and a parent I see the pros and cons of each side. So it comes down to is this official written BSA policy or would this be a pack and parent decision? TIA

[kbandit]

I do not have anything in writing. My first thought is this is adding to requirements and not allowed. In my thinking he is being punished by Cub Scouts because of something that happened outside of scouts. The school dosn't punish for something that happens outside of school why would scouts.

 

Have you looked at the Cub Scout Leader Handbook? The answer may be in that publication.

 

I think if you look at the requirements for each rank it says complete X grade or be X old. This scout will be doing the age based requirement for being a certain rank. I have dealt with the joining reqmts. for Boy Scouts. It can be age and/or grade based. If in several years the cub was moving to scouts I would be looking at the joining reqmts. as written and see that he met the reqmts. Being in 4th grade at the time, so. Age and/or AOL would be his reqmt.

 

My two cents.

[gwd-scouter]

We had that come up a couple of times when I was a Cub Leader. In our case, we moved the boy along with his Den mates. The Cub Scout joining requirements use a grade level, but also the boy's age. When the boy is in Webelos and ready to cross over to a Troop, his age can be the determining factor on whether he meets the joining requirement, not necessarily his grade level.

 

In other words, if by the time he's ready to cross over to Boy Scouts he is 11 years old, or if he has earned the Arrow of Light, it doesn't matter if he is in the fourth grade. The joining requirement for Boy Scouts is be eleven years old OR have completed fifth grade OR have earned the Arrow of Light.

 

[evmori]

There are age requirements, too. This isn't restricted to school grade. It is a grade or an age. Your trainer is incorrect.

[sheldonsmom]

We use only the age. Because most of our boys are homeschooled, our grade system is a bit different. (A boy might be in 2nd grade math and 4th grade reading).

 

Have you asked the parents which they prefer? If it was maturity issues, they might prefer him to repeat the scout level but the decision should be made with their input.

 

 

 

 

[Hal_Crawford]

The trainer who is concerned about the transition to boy scouts is cheating the boy out of a year to complete Eagle. Unless he has a disability he will age out on his 18th birthday sometime in his junior year. Its a long way off but something to think about in deciding what to do.

[Lisabob]

Your trainer is blowing smoke. Leave it up to the boy's parents. We've done it both ways, depending on what the parents felt was best for their boy, and it has worked out fine in all cases.

 

 

[infoscouter]

Your trainer was indeed mis-informed. The Cub scout leader book addresses this subject in the chapter on advancement. IIRC, in general, the recommendation is to keep the boy with his den, *unless* his parents feel he would benefit from repeating the rank. This however is usually only the case if the Scout has _not_ earned his rank.

 

Think about it this way - Scouts may be one place where he feels successful (especially if he has been advancing successfully). Why would you want him to feel worse about Scouting when he likely doesn't feel good about his school experience.

 

I don't have my leader book handy. Dig yours out and find the chapter and read it. I think it will help.

[Pack212Scouter]

Your trainer is incorrect. The Cub Scouting program allows for program placement bases on rank or age. Talk to the parents. Unless there is a preference to repeat the program year, it is recommended that he stay with his Den. If you are a school chartered Pack, then the Parent may prefer him to remain Scouting with classmates, however if only one or two from a class are in the unit, then this is a very minimal reason to repeat a program level.

 

As for advancing to Boy Scouts, boys who are 11 OR 10 and have EITHER completed fifth grade or earned their Arrow of Light. If he is on course to completing AOL at 10, then he will have no issue advancing to Boy Scouts regardless of his grade.

[fleetfootedfox]

Yeah, have to look at the big picture here. Lots of boys barely make eagle before 18, so holding him back will decrease his odds. Maybe they had good reason to hold him back, but how does that apply to scouting? I assume the school is not the CO, so they have no say, and neither does the district person. It wouldn't be the first time I have been told something wrong in training. Anybody can be a district level trainer.

[SctDad]

Thnk about it this way. He is being held back in school. Do you really want to hold him back in scouts also. I thought we were going to have this problem, but our DE told me to move the boys up in scouting so he can stay with his den mates.

 

You trainer is wrong. If you are still having problems contact your commissioner or your DE.

[Beavah]

Welcome to da forums, packbrain.

 

The only requirements here are Kindness and Wisdom. Yeh gather information and do what's in the long-term best interest of the lad, not what's in a book or what some trainer says who doesn't know the lad.

 

It may very well be that the best choice is to have him repeat da year in Cubs and re-earn his rank. That would help him really develop friendships within his new grade, which will be hugely important for him to do quickly and successfully. Da other thing is that as an "experienced" Wolf or Bear or whatever, his confidence in Scouting will be increased and he'll be able to stand out and shine among his new peers. That could be a very positive thing, especially if yeh have a DL who will use him as a helper and example, recognizing his knowledge.

 

It may be that da best choice is to have him continue with his current den if he's already been very successful in scouting. In that case, repeatin' a year might feel dull, and yeh might be taking away an important success from the boy, when he needs somethin' to be successful at.

 

Talk to the parents, and the DL, and the boy, and think about who this boy is, eh? Young for his grade? A bit immature? Doesn't stand out in his cub work? ... or ... old for his grade, mature but with a learnin' disability that affects only his school work not his scouting?

 

Generally speakin', boys spend a lot of time in school, and their relationships at that age are goin' to revolve around their school classmates. Since relationships are far more important than badges, I think I'd lean more toward puttin' him in a den with his new classmates, all else bein' equal.

 

Beavah

 

[Eamonn]

I was unhappy with my sons reading ability and had him redo second grade.

I also moved him to another school.

He moved along with the Den when that time came.

Other than a few slight problems when he was a Webelos Scout, when some of the other members of the Den had learned some things in school that he hadn't it really wasn't a big deal.

The trainer it seems wasn't right.

I'd be happy to talk with the parents and see what they want to do.

One reason I moved OJ to a different school was because in the school he was in the second grade spent a lot of time preparing the kids for their First Holy Communion. As he already made his First Holy Communion, going over all that again seemed a little silly.

Not that maybe he wouldn't have benefited from a good dose of religion!!

(I was happy not to have the Nun call me every night with his sin of the day!)

Eamonn

[Docrwm]

The Trainer is plain wrong. The rules are Grade OR Age for each rank as are the rules for transition to Boy Scouts. YOU can choose to hold him back or his parents can but your District Trainer has no role in the process at all and really should read the manuals. Too many Red/Green tab folks know next to nothing about Cub Scouts but shoot their mouths off. I see it routinely with Roundtables with Commissioners that are Boy Scouters doing CS Roundtable and not knowing what they're talking about on a regular basis. Did the boy earn his rank - Yes or No. If yes, then why punish him and make him do it again? His academic progression only matters in so far as you may want to keep him with his classmates - however you may also want to keep him with his current friends with whom he has been successful in Scouts.

 

The bottom line is - did he legitimately pass the requirements for his rank? We've got plenty of rules to allow boys to do optional progressions - particularly if they are disabled. Simply because he had trouble passing in school is no reason to take away his achievement in Scouts.

[diogenes]

For the sake of arguement, let's flip the question: little Johnny was allowed to skip a grade, so can he skip a level of Cubs (to be with his classmates)? If Billy is a genius and is in 7th grade at age 6, can he join the local Boy Scout Troop?

 

Age and grade requirements both exist. Sound advice has been given so far, so I won't say much more than I agree that the boy shouldn't be held back in Cubs just because of school. As a criminologist, the potential harm in holding him back far outweighs any possible benefits. Will holding him back make him a criminal? Not in and of itself, but it sure would increase the odds of the "I'm a loser, why bother?" attitude devloping.

 

Not all units are organized by grade cohort. Some go by age and will move the boys up and along as soon as they are old enough and have met any other requirements.