Cub Master forcing me to take New Boys?

[denleaderamy]

On the contrary, if you look at the time of my post, it was 11:31pm and I was logging off for the night. Honestly, I thought the post would die rather quickly as it probably would not be on the top of the page and most people aren't going to scroll through all of the posts.

 

Note too please that I said Thank you for your thoughts. That was to all that had replyed, not just to those that supported my decision with me.

 

I wasn't trying to spark a debate and it looks as though, many people feel strongly one way or the other.

 

I was looking for an answer. Can my Cub Master force me to take more boys? Yes or No. I think it is very interesting the responses I received. I know where my convictions stand whether I am oppossed or supported. A few strangers telling me their feelings behind it is not going to sway my stance on the issue. Although, I do appreciate their knowledge and experiences.

 

I will do what is best for the boys.

 

We all disagree on many things, that's what makes things interesting. But, it was in all matter of speaking, a simple question.

 

Also, we have already said, we would be happy to meet as Webelos Dens (altogether) some and make sure that everyone is heading in the right direction. as it is, I send my plans to the other leaders and any resources I create, I share with them as well.

 

I am all about sharing the information and the effort. But, when it boils down to it, I am willing to take responsibility for 8.

 

Do I want to exclude those not in our Den? Absolutely not. As I said, when one boys drops, we pick up another.

 

If you are not wanting a little bit of Den competition, what is the purpose of the Den Cheer, Den Yell, Den Flags, and, for Webelos, Den Emblems? Is that not to set them apart a bit and get them workng as a team?

 

I see there are those of us out there that keep a bit more structure within our dens and are comfortable doing that and there are those that, just open the doors and accept all and the program might not be as intense or things get done when they get done.

 

To each his own, don't condemn me for limiting what I feel is the best number for our den to service.

 

 

 

 

[Hal_Crawford]

Welcome to the forum. If you lurk around some of the threads you will see that no one ever gets a simple yes or no answer. Please don't be shocked or offended that you get not only the one word answer you sought but also a raft of opinions about what SHOULD be done as well as what CAN or CANNOT be done.

 

It seems that the nearly unanimous consensus is that no, your CM can't force you to take any more scouts any more than he can force you to be a Den Leader. If all you want is a one word answer that validates your position then you have it and you can stop looking at the thread. I suspect though that you care about what is best and that's why you are still here.

 

Perhaps you, the CM and the other DL should sit down and try to work out the best solution for everyone. You have very valid reasons for wanting to limit the size of your den. I suspect his reasoning is that this third Den has collapsed and rather than trying to revive it with out a willing/strong DL, he sees the opportunity to place in these boys in a strong and successful den. I think this is also a valid point of view. See it as a complement to what you have accomplished or see as being a victim of your own success. He obviously thinks that you are the best suited to handle the larger den. This may be overlooking that your den is working because it is an optimal size. I don't think you should take the boys if you feel you are being forced but I also think you should be open to considering what is best for all the boys. Talk amongst yourselves and perhaps the best solution will present itself.

 

Whatever you do there was a great piece of advice in one of the previous posts. Ask for a Den Chief. An active, engaged Den Chief will not only make your life easier but will help prepare the Webelos for the transition to Boy Scouts. I strongly believe that Webelos that have a Den Chief are more likely to bridge to Boy Scouts and stay in scouting for the long term. A Den Chief will often spot and solve interpersonal problems between the boys faster and more effectively than adults do. Den Chiefs are God's gift to Den Leaders.

 

Enjoy this time and perhaps you will think back on it in a few short years as you pin an Eagle medal on your son's shirt. You are not only helping him get there but also all the other boys that you influence as a Den Leader. Best of luck.

 

Hal

[John-in-KC]

What Hal said is true. We rarely give yes's or no's. In fact, more than occasionally we don't answer on the first pass, but rather ask for more information.

 

We'll point you to training resources, other Scouting resources on the web (including the National website, which gets better at providing resources all the time), and encourage you on the trail.

 

Like Hal said, though... enjoy the time. It's amazing how fast they grow up!!!

[scoutldr]

Short answer...no. YOu are a volunteer, and no one can force you to do anything. In fact, you should remain a volunteer only as long as the job continues to be fun and satisfying to you. My philosophy is that each potential den of 8 boys has 16 potential den leaders...it's the Committee and CM's job to find one to say yes. In my own situation, my sons are now 31 and 27, and I've served my time as DL, CM, SM, CC and District. When my nephews became of Cub age, the "family" said, "please be a Den Leader again, so Bobby can be in your Troop(sic)." My reply, "sorry, but I've done my part...Bobby's parents need to take their turn in the barrel". The result, nephews joined, but dropped out within a year...because the parents wouldn't participate. (The dads always had time to watch NASCAR and football on TV, though, while I was in the woods with other people's kids at the troop level.) Do I feel guilty? Not a bit. There are people who give what they can through volunteering...and there are people who do nothing but take advantage of us. I have little patience with the latter.

[Novice_Cubmaster]

Unfortunately, "that each potential den of 8 boys has 16 potential den leaders..." is wishful thinking. First, not every scout has two parents. Second, not every parent can fit being a leader into their schedule, due to travel or job reasons (one of our parents would love to be a den leader, but he's a fireman and his schedule is erratic to say the least).

 

Third - and most importantly, not every parent should be den leader. Den Leaders really are the backbone of Cub Scouting, and it does take the right kind of person to handle the job. We've lost a number of boys over the years because the parents who were dragooned into the job didn't create the right chemistry.

 

Tempering my earlier post a bit, yes - a den leader should have some say in how many boys are in their den - but sometimes you have to have a few more than you'd optimally want. Its really not fair to a boy to put him in the middle if his parent (or others) won't, can't or shouldn't step up.

 

 

NC

 

[Basementdweller]

Far as to what I said and meant earlier in the thread.

 

Not displaying much in the was of scouting spirit. A lot of Me, I and friends. It isn't about the other dens it is about your den. The CM asked you to take two more boys. At a table of 8, two more is nothing.

 

And you have an assistant at that???????????????????????

 

Wallet????????? Ever heard of Dues. If your spending that much out of pocket increase your dues to cover it or have parents pay for outings or what ever is eating up the most cash. Is it snacks???? Snack Bucket is the instant fix. Everyone takes a turn filling it for the meeting. Just sounds like an excuse.

 

 

Yes you are a volunteer and it is your choice. But IMHO you are being selfish.

 

 

16 volunteers for 8 boys is a very dated belief.

75% are divorced and 50% of those live to far to be much of a parent let alone a

scout leader

 

That takes it down to 10 possible.

1/3 to 1/2 of those can't pass the background check. We live in a city center, a rough

area.

 

That takes it down to 5 possibilities. Charter org will not approve some of them because of behavior problems.

 

 

 

[denleaderamy]

BasementDweller,

 

You are right. Selfish, that's what I am. Why didn't I think of that?

 

The hours spent at Roundtable, taking online training, attend CSLS and OWLS trainings. All because these are just things that sound like fun.

 

Updating the tracking software and helping parents understand what is required of their boys. How dare I?

 

Spending hours creating materials, preparing activities, and arranging fun and interesting outings, researching skits and planning service projects. Shame on me?

 

Numerous hours spent hiking, camping, fishing, bowling, crafting, skitting, exploring, creating, building, painting, racing, and who can count what else, with the boys. The nerve of me!

 

 

I am not looking for the awards and recognition that I can receive. I am doing MY best to help the boys move along, have great experiences and enjoy this time of their lives. And trust me, they do.

 

Come on. Really? You are really going to call me selfish?

 

No, we don't do snacks. Yes, I take up dues when necessary. And as I have said, in a previous response, the money is but a tiny factor.

 

2 more at a table of 8, no big deal? Yes, actually it is. It's the difference between buying two packs of Hot Dog Buns or one pack. Not that buns are an issue here, just making a point.

 

Maybe you should take a walk in someone elses shoes before you start name calling.

 

Yes, I am saying "I" because that's who is writing this.

 

All I can say is "Wow." And you seem a little snippy too.

 

Maybe you have too many boys in your den. lol

[denleaderamy]

Basement Dweller and all others,

 

I am sorry for the outburst in response to BD post. Speak your mind.

 

But I want to say this, if anyone should understand this issue, it should be you.

 

"This weekend there was 10 boys with two adults, we had three but one fell ill and had to leave. We spent the entire event dealing with behavior issues with these two boys not listening, speaking over the presenters, just being disruptive to the group. The 8 other boys were all about what was going on so no issues. We survived the event and the boys were rude on the way back to the pick up point to everyone in the car and started fighting with each other...I joined scouts to be with my son, I have fond memorys of my scouting experiences and feel there behavior is having a negative impact on the group. I hesitate to plan any events now because of these two boys, because they always attend, We are babysitters for their parents.

 

With day camp and resident camp looming I am AFRAID of being stuck with them for a week.

 

A parting note, These two boys and the thought of dealing with them has made me consider leaving scouting or at least changing packs. I was awake last night wondering what to do."

 

 

That was pulled from your posts May 19, 2008.

 

Now, what's the difference between 8 and 10?

 

 

[gwd-scouter]

Amy, let it go. On your own you admitted surprise that this thread got so much attention. Why continue to feed it? You know what you are going to do, you have been given the 'correct' answer by forum members that your CM cannot 'make' you take any more scouts in your den.

 

You and others have made it very clear that you don't agree with those that think your decision is a bit short sighted. OK then, let it go, do your best with the den of boys that you have, good luck to you. Why do you continue to post on this thread? If you're happy with your decision and glad that some folks on the forum agree with you, why continue to make a post to argue your point to folks that clearly aren't listening?

 

 

[Eagle732]

I still say the CM would avoid a lot of problems by adopting my policy of always asking the DL if they would be willing to accept a Scout into their den before assigning them.

[denleaderamy]

I guess I continue to respond for the same reason you feel the need to post asking why I am posting.

 

I was defending my character.

 

It was my original thread, I will continue to read and reply as needed. Don't like it? Don't read it.

 

There is no need to be snippy.

[John-in-KC]

May I ask we all take a step back, and a deep breath?

 

To my fellow regulars, please remember how much we lose in the use of a keyboard vice sound and facial expression? None of us have been perfect Scouters in our time on the boards, certainly not I... Even so, trying to help a Mom and DL make a tough call isn't always easy.

 

To Amy, you can see there are two schools of thought on this challenge. At the end of the day, it's your Den, and your call. All we can do is each give our best thoughts.

 

Let us know how you approach your SM on this.

[packsaddle]

I suggest we let the heat dissipate for a while. Amy, you are discovering that sometimes we respond in an intemperate manner in these threads. FWIW, I don't think you are being selfish and I thank you for the service you are providing as a dedicated volunteer for the boys you have in your den. There is no other person on these threads who can stand in your shoes with the boys you have or in the pack that you are in. There is not one person who is more qualified to make your decision than you are.

I was a den leader for years and also cubmaster for years and I really miss the cubs. I hope you can enjoy every moment, even the frustrating ones later on, because these little guys are so full of energy, wonder, and yes, mischief. It will be over far too soon.

 

Edited part: I see that John and I were typing at the same time and I agree with him.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[DeanRx]

Amy...

 

After reading 3 pages of posts, I decided to add my 2-cents (OK well more like $2 worth).

 

I have been a DL and I am currently a CM in a pack with 57 scouts. We have dens with as little as 4 scouts and one with as many as 14. I have asked (even suggested) that the den of 14 split, but they don't want to and they have at least 3 assist DL's and they make it work and provide good program.

 

The short answer is - NO - the CM, the committee or even the Chartered Organization cannot "force" you to take on additional scouts.

 

But - I would like to ask a few questions based on previous posts... (you don't have to answer them to me or the forum, but please answer them to yourself before making a final decision on the size of the den)

 

1) Is it the quantity of scouts, or the behavoir of the additional two scouts that is really in play? Do one or two more REALLY impact behavoir that much? You state you are an educator. I know class size does impact learning, but if the school board bumps your class up by a couple students, do you throw up your hands and stop trying? Afterall - the class is TOO big now. You say your den broke away from two other dens and formed a cohesive, productive den. That is great and good for the boys in that den. So long as you didn't just pick the low hanging fruit from the other two dens and left the "problem" children in the other dens... I am not saying that is the case, just making an observation.

 

2) You are running a successful program, being asked to do more is the "reward" for being successful... take the request to add scouts as the compliment that it is!

 

3) The wallet issue should be a non-issue. Either have Den dues or bring it up to the committee and have a couple of small fundraisers and split the proceeds between all dens for den activities... You're already volunteering your time, you should not have to volunteer your pocketbook as well.

 

4) You state that in your estimation, "men always want to include everyone, the women want to set limits".... calling it "quality control". Sorry to be blunt on this one and please feel free to disagree, BUT my take is: "Men like a big group and don't mind unruliness, women (in general) are cliquey". Please search your heart to make sure your desire to keep the group at 8 isn't because of the clique factor. I agree that its easier to hang out with other kids / parents that you are comfortable with, but the program (and the kids) really do grow by being challenged sometimes outside of their personal "comfort" zone.

 

5) You refer to the Den many times as "my" or "mine". A sense of ownership is fine. A sense of possesion is not. Yes, you are the DL - but you are merly a steward of the den. I go to great lengths to refrain from using a possesive inference when talking about our pack. Its not mine, it belongs to the families it serves (even if technically it is OWNED by the CO) What do other parents in the den (other than you and the assist DL) think of adding one or two more boys? Have you asked them? Would you be more open to it IF you were to have 2 assist DL's instead of just one? Overall, I believe the choice to expand the den lies with the members of the den (with appropriate input from the Den Leader - but not a trump card veto).

 

The reasons I ask these questions... I get the sense from the previous posts that YOU and your helper like it the way it is and don't want the hassle of distrupting what you have going, especially when other parents are not willing to step-up. I can respect that. However, I also get the feeling that the scouts in "YOUR" den are all good buddies, play on outside sports teams together, and frankly are somewhat cliquish and closed to the idea of making new friends. That runs contrary to scouting spirit and you would be doing yourself and your son a favor to get outside the comfort zone a little on that issue. It will help ALL the kids grow.

 

It doesn't matter HOW long the den has been together, there should always be room for more friends and more scouts.

 

If you are reluctant to add to the den because you are truely concerned about program quality, then I understand. However, what if your son came home from school tomorrow and said, "Mom, I got this new guy in my class... he's really cool and he wants to join scouts.... can he be in our den with us?" If your answer is the same, that no he'd need to join another den because 8 is the max we can do well, then I support you in your decision. But if the answer changes based on WHO it is and what their history is (i.e. discipline issues or non-parent involvement), then you need to seriuosly reconsider your motives as a DL.

 

Can a CM 'force' a DL to take additional scouts into their den? = NO

Should a DL be reluctant to take additional scouts into their den? = hopefully not

Should a scout be made to quit, change packs, or feel left-out because their DL quit on them and noone wants to take them in? = God, I should hope not.

 

Search your heart - you'll make the right choice. I know you already do a lot, but we that 'do' can always 'do' more than we think is our max. I've proven that to myself more times than I can recall. Its also where the greatest rewards of being a volunteer is found. Yes, burnout is a risk, but without risk - there can be no reward.

 

Honestly, as a CM, I'd respect your choice either way. A scout's quality expirience (especially in cubs) is directly related to their parent's level of involvement - and you are already doing more than 90% of parents will ever raise their hand to help with. I'd feel good about your choice if I had assurances that it was being made for the right reasons. As a CM, I would hope that I and the pack committee would be doing everything in our power to reduce any obstacles (i.e. financial burden / adult leader helpers / etc...) to a den accepting more members.

 

Best of luck on this one... the fact that you have lost sleep over it shows that it is not a decision you take lightly.

[gwd-scouter]

Deep breath in, deep breath out.... Ahhhhhh

 

Sorry folks for my uncharacteristic churlishness in this thread.

 

Now, back to your regular programming.