Cub Master forcing me to take New Boys?

[denleaderamy]

We have a den of very solid 8 boys. They come to everything we do and rarely does 1 miss anything.

 

I have myself and an assistant leader.

We said from the beginnging (as Wolves, when we became leaders) that we would take no more than 8 boys. That is the number we feel is manageable.

 

Other than a boy moving and then filling his spot from another interested person who was not involved in Scouting, we have had no dropouts or additions.

 

We are presently Bears, moving into Webelos. Our Pack presently has 3 Bear dens, ours of 8, one den of 6 and one of 5.

 

The leader of the Den of 5 has decided to drop out of scouting, the CubMaster only thinks that 2 of the remaining 4 will return.

 

He has told me that he does not think he can honor my request to remain at 8. He wants to put 2 of the 4 in my den and 2 of the four in the den of 6. Bringing our numbers to 10 and 8.

 

I am not interested in this plan at all. I have planned on handing off more bits of the responsibility to my boys in Webelos and feel that it is harder to manage more than 8.

 

Can he force me to take more boys? This den (with the one exception) have been together in Scouting for 2 years now and they know and respect each other well, as do their parents.

 

I am really worried that adding even one boy will have a negative effect on my boys and our program. (Not to mention, my wallet.)

 

What do I do?

[gwd-scouter]

Welcome to the forum!

 

My first question is why adding boys to your den would impact your wallet?

 

If the boys do not join your den, where will they go? Will they have to find another pack? Just drop out? Imagine for a moment that due to personal circumstances you could no longer be den leader for your son. How would you feel if another den leader in the Pack said, 'sorry, all full, you're son can't join us'. Even worse, how would your son feel?

 

No, the Cubmaster can't force you to accept more members in your den any more than he/she can force you to volunteer your time as a den leader. Will you tell the two boys they are not welcome in your den, or will you leave that to the Cubmaster? Hopefully, the other den leader will not think a den of 10 is too much to handle.

[denleaderamy]

Adding boys would impact my wallet. Because Scouting is not free. There are always expenses involved. As a leader, I often find myself absorbing some of these.

 

As to where else the boys will go. Well, the other leader thinks more than 8 is too many as well. She presently has 6.

 

If you have 4 boys, that means you have 4 perfectly capable sets of parents. Not to mention we are heading into round-up time when we will be adding more scouts to the pack as it is.

 

 

The reason we began a new den was to leave a group that was too large. We weren't getting anything accomplished and it was pure mayhem. We split and formed our own den. We took boys from 2 other dens and formed our group.

 

I don't think that it is right to ask those that already do so much, to do more than they are willing or capable of doing when you have others that do not volunteer for anything. Why can't their parents step up to leadership?

 

All I was saying was this, I have a strong program because I keep it small, fun, and managable. If you overload leadership, there is a higher chance of burnout and then there is a bigger problem.

 

The leader's son is not coming back. It is the remainder of the den that needs a new leader.

 

I was just asking for some opinions. I would rather have a small, strong program.

 

[Novice_Cubmaster]

Sorry to say it, but "suck it up".

 

Since there are only 4 (maybe 2) scouts from the den that's folding - that's pretty small for a den. Would you rather transfer a couple of "your" scouts over so their head count would be a more likely to prosper 6 (or maybe 4)?

 

As for it costing you, yes - as a former Web Den Leader and as a Cubmaster, I sucked up a few buck here & there - it wasn't worth turning in reciepts, etc.. However, if it's getting that high for you, work with your committed/CM/Treasurer - if what you're purchasing is within reason, you should be reimbursed.

 

NC(This message has been edited by novice_cubmaster)

[SctDad]

I tried posting somethign earlier but ran into technical difficulties.

 

Remember that the program is for the boys. If you are going to turn them away then you are wrong. Two boys to add to your 8 is not that many. You may find out that the parents have something that you can use for earning you activity badges. Maybe there is something that you have not found out about yet.

 

Don't give up on these boyys. Let them be a part of your team. But when they do come in have a meeting with the parents and let them know that you have standards and expectations. You have been successful so far and you want to keep that going for your future eagles. All of your boys have that potential.

 

Maybe your CM has seen how you do things and has faith and trust in you that you can handle this effectivly.

 

Hope things work out for you.

[shortridge]

I second the previous feedback.

 

There's no magic number, in a den or Boy Scout patrol, that makes a small group unmanageable. The group dynamics, and the leader's attitude, are the critical components. If you're really stuck on the number eight, and you're going to fight this all the way, then the two new Webelos are going to realize that, and not feel wanted.

 

If you're feeling overwhelmed, in terms of time or financially, ask for help. There's no shame in seeking assistance, especially if your den is growing. If you're carrying too much of the cost on your shoulders - my parents were DLs all the way through, and I know a little of what they had to do themselves - then do a den dues system, or ask other parents for help.

[denleaderamy]

Let me add this.

 

This group of boys that we have. They are all friends outside of scouting. They are all on the same sports teams and have similar interests.

 

We see these people in other situations. I am also worried that new boys might feel left out because of the team spirit the boys already have.

 

I am not looking for a fight. It just doesn't make sense to me. To add boys to a full den when you have a den that is not full. Not to mention round up and adding new scouts. What happens then?

 

You over fill our dens and then new boys add at recruitment? That means our den sizes double.

 

You are right, the program is for the boys. I know that, I understnad that, that is the reason I stepped up to be a leader. I saw my son was not getting what he should and I stepped up.

 

I help in everyway I can and volunteer for everything possible.

All I am asking is this "As a volunteer, don't I have the right to set certain limits that make the program manageable and beneficial to the boys?"

 

We still work together as dens and do activities with all the bear boys (soon to be Webelos.)

 

I am not asking if you feel it is right. In my experience the men seem to be willing to accept every boy and the women tend to set limits. The problem, is that when the numbers go up the quality of the program seems to go down.

 

I don't see why parents can't step up to help and why a guilt trip is set on those of us who spend massive amounts of time to make the program the best it can be if we want limits.

 

Consider it Quality Control.

 

[Nike]

If you want to draw a line in the sand, be prepared to personally say to the other boys and thier parents, "No," and to personally hear from your CM, "Well, perhaps I need to find a DL who can handle the numbers we'll be having." If you are going to be giving the boys more responsiblility, then what's the big deal about adding two more? Make the boys figure out what they want to do and then help them price it. Assess dues accordingly and have the boys collect and disburse. And, let's be honest, at round up you are rarely going to come up with a Web 1.

 

I have frequently encountered your position in Girl SCouting, and that's why there are literally a hundred girls on the waiting list in this county. Parents won't step up and leaders are adamant that they won't bend either.

 

And lastly, you may see your den as a great team, BP's ideal of the boys' own little gang. Me? I'm seeing something more cliquey.

 

 

 

 

[infoscouter]

Ultimately, the Cubmaster is the program leader of the pack. He has to think about the whole pack and how to keep as many boys as possible in a strong program. Right now, he sees two capable leaders, with successful dens and one floundering den. For the health of the pack, what would you do? Close down the not so successful den, turn it over to a less than capable parent or try to add the still interested boys to the successful dens? From his standpoint, his best bet in keeping these boys in Scouting and providing them with a successful experience is to call on his dependable, good leaders to step up to the plate.

 

Sure - it's possible you'll get more 4th graders, but the reality is that very few 4th & 5th graders join Cub Scouts. It's also the point at which we lose the largest groups of boys, so it is likely that some of the current Scouts may drop out.

 

Yes, your group dynamics will change if you have to add two new families to your established den. I can't imagine however that these other boys are total strangers. The odds are they attend the same schools as your current Scouts, and may have interacted with them in other settings as well. Who knows - they may have great things to add to your den.

 

This is your opportunity to show the best of Scouting to these boys who may not have had a great experience so far. The ultimate in "goodwill" could result from welcoming these boys into your den. You're not just the leader of _your_ den - you are a member of the pack's leadership team. Think about being a team player and doing your best for *all* the boys in the pack.

[Eagle92]

I must concur with most of the posters with taking the new boys in. However I would even it out so that each den has a total of 9. Do leaders go the extra mile. Heck yeah. I've helped scouts in th past who couldn't afford to do some activities or get needed equipment. Why, b/c I'm in it for the kids. I remember what is was like gorwing up and the outstanding yuouth and leaders who helped me on the way. So I give back.

 

I'ld talk to the treasurer, they may be ways to assist in finances for those havign difficulty wihtout you having to foot the bill.

[Eagle732]

As a past CM I always let the DLs decide on how many and who they accepted in their dens. I did this knowing that it was my responsibility to find a den for each Cub and that if I had to fill in as DL until we could find a leader I would do that. I also had to be very persuasive in recruiting leaders. At some point the CM will need to recruit another DL. Sounds like Amy is expecting even more members after round-up. How many is too many and when does she have the right to say no? On the other hand I never had a DL say no to a new Cub, but I always asked.

[nldscout]

Maybe I am in the minority here, but if Amy is not comfortable with more than 8, then that is all she should have to take. Why should the CM be allowed to force a DL to take more cubs then they are willing to work with.

 

Whats the consequences, we lose a den of 8, because the leader is unhappy. No one should force you into doing something that makes you uncomfortable, If you can be force to take 2, what happens when there are 2 more after that, do you have to take 1 more, then 1 more. When does it end.

 

Amy, put your foot down and say "NO"

[ScoutNut]

The entire Pack, and all of it's dens, belong to your Charter Organization. They are the "owners".

 

The people that the CO have put in charge of seeing that the Pack, and the BSA program, are running the way they should are the Charter Organization Rep, the Committee Chair, and the Cubmaster.

 

It is one of the responsibilities of the Committee Chair, with the help of the Cubmaster, to form new dens when needed. This means consolidating them when needed also.

 

You asked if the Cubmaster can "force" you to take new boys, as someone mentioned, you can't be forced to do anything, but neither are the CC and CM forced to keep a den leader who would push boys out of the Pack, and possibly Scouting. Their job is to stop that.

 

Did the den leader for the 3rd Bear den leave now, right before the end of the school year? Why did that happen? Why didn't the leader and the leaders son stay at least until the end of the school year? It is only a matter of a couple of weeks. It sounds like there could be more going on here.

 

I can understand not wanting a den to get to large. I can understand being concerned about the manageability of a large den. I can understand wanting the boys in your den to get the best possible BSA program.

 

I can't understand using cost as an excuse for turning away boys. Charge den dues, and get help from your Pack Committee.

 

If you want to avoid burnout, recruit more of your parents to be either den leaders, or den helpers. Using your parents to run Webelos Activity Badges in areas of interest to them is recommended by BSA.

 

I also can't understand wanting to keep a solid, special, clique together by excluding all other boys. What do you plan on doing when they go to Boy Scouts? If they all go into the same Troop, your clique of 8 will most likely get broken up into different patrols. How will they handle that? How will they manage to get along with all of the other boys in the Troop? How will they accept being led by boys who are not in their clique? By boys who are different from them?

 

The only "negative impact" new boys will have on the den is the one you let happen.

 

[Basementdweller]

Now there is a big steaming cup of scout spirit.

 

I don't really have anything positive to add other than shaking my head in disbelief.

[denleaderamy]

I am not pushing boys out of the pack. Come on. I was just a mom. We were in a den of 14 and it was way out of control. We branched off and my assistant leader and I agreed, as teachers, that 8 boys of this age was more than enough and that was the maximum we would allow in our den.

 

If someone dropped out, then we would consider it open and anyone could join. This group of boys are not a clique as you would say. They met at Cub Scouts. They were formed by an e-mail going out and the first 6 people to reply were a part of the den. It just so happens that they have formed an incredible bond and have become a large part of each other's lives.

 

The dad (den leader) said his son just didn't want to do it anymore.

He hasn't told his parents yet.

 

My Cub Master told me that he would have to step up and take temporary leadership and he didn't want to do that because it is a big undertaking and would take a lot of time.

 

His suggestion was to add the boys to the existing dens instead.

 

My concern is this, when we came into this pack, we transferred in with our entire den. And it was known at the time that we would take no more than 8. If I say yes and allow them this time. Round-up will come around, we'll pick up 2-4 boys and before long we are a den of 12, which is close to what we left before.

 

If these boys leave Scouting, it is not because of me. It would be the responsibility of the parents who don't step up and/or the Committee who doesn't recruit new leadership. Don't place blame on the volunteers.

 

You can't overwhelm your leaders or the program as a whole suffers.

 

Do we participate with the other Scouts? You bet your bottom, we do. We go to every campout, function, Pack meeting, you name it, we attend. Sometimes our 8 families are the only ones that do attend with the CM and Assistant CMs.

 

It just so happens that our den does a lot. We encourage Pack Wide service projects and plan a number of things for the group.

 

We have a lot of volunteer parents from our den. Popcorn Kernal, PR, Advancement Coordinator, Service Project Chair, and that's just from the parents in our den. So yes, our boys interact with the others quite well.

 

I too, am a very busy person and although I love scouting and the ideals behind it, I am shocked to hear people say that if I don't take these boys in and they drop out of scouting, it is my fault.

 

These boys are not foster children or orphans, they are boys with capable parents who can step us, just as I have to make sure the boys get the best out of the program.

 

I spend my time going to trainings and round tables and planning and preparing, and I am still a volunteer.

 

Will I be a life long Scouter? No. When my son is done, so am I.

 

I never said expense was a primary concern for not wanting new boys. But, yes it does have an impact as well.

 

CC knew when we came into this Pack that we would not budge from 8. At the time she was a Assistant Den Leader and their Den transferred in at the same time we did. We all left the same pack. She is a friend of mine outside of Scouting. She knows where I stand.

 

I have not swayed on this since my den was formed 2 years ago.

 

We had one move and a new boy jumped in the slot. A new scout.

 

If you want your son to be in scouting, you should be prepared to step up when needed.