Arrowhead Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 After having been given conflicting stories about the authority of a leader who has earned "BB Shooting" or "Archery" certification for Cub Scouts, I'm seeking a definitive answer. I've been told that a leader holding one of these certification cards (in date) is considered to be a "Range Officer" for the particular sport in Cub Scouts. This qualification allows the leader to set up the range, open the range, supervise the range, teach the sport to Cub Scouts, and sign off for a Cub Scout's belt loop and pin. On the contrary, I've been told that these certifications allow all of the above with the exception of "opening" the range. This, I was told, may only be done by a "Range Master" or Shooting Sports Director. I do not find the term "Range Master" in the "Shooting Sports for Cub Scouts" booklet. Neither do I find "Range Master" listed in the Cub Scout Day Camp standards. The only other two titles I've encountered are the National Camping School trainer who trains and certifies Shooting Sports Directors, and Shooting Sports Directors, who train "Range Officers". I understand that NRA and NAA instructors can certify "Range Officers". Am I missing a "middle man", this "Range Master"? I understand that any range must be operated under the auspices of the council/district. Thank you for your kind attention to this matter. And, as an aside, please check your rhetoric before posting a response. I've read far too many vitriolic, spiteful, and haughty postings on these forums which have let me quite saddened about leadership in Scouting. Best regards, RAFjr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunny2862 Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 My understanding is that: The Council decides which of the individuals can open the Range. In MY own training, IN MY council, I was given the authority by our Councils NRA Certified Shooting Sports Director on his and the SE's behalf to operate Cub Scout Shooting Ranges from layout to tear down. To include opening and closing the Range. (Edit)The titles given us were, respectively, CS BB Rifle Rangemaster and CS Archery Rangemaster. I am certain, given the nature of these things, that someone else will have a different answer...(This message has been edited by Gunny2862) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottteng Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 Sometimes the semantics of the whole thing get overwhelming and also change from council to council. A national camp school trained shooting sports director is required to open our ranges at the boy scout reservation then the ranges are under the "range masters" trained by the shooting sports directors venue specific Archery, Rifle, Shotgun one or more per open venue. After all it is kind of hard to supervise boys over at archery from the rifle range. The shooting sports director is required to be on property so if he goes to the dining hall or to a troops campsite for lunch activity may continue if he gets in his vehicle and drives to Wendy's then all ranges shut down. Similar rules apply to cub scout shooting sports at council family camps. Where it gets a bit squishy is at cub scout day camp. Shooting sports directors are usually business people who already give lots of hours to the scout program to ask them to take an extra week off and run day camp shooting sports is a bit much. An adult is usually trained and appointed as cub scout day camp shooting sports director to be in charge of the ranges full time during the week. The regular director will help set up the ranges properly and help with equipment but is not expected to be the full time person on site. This is a very good thing because summer camp sessions are often running concurrently with day camp which also needs shooting sports directors. Our day camp typically has two shooting sports venues with one adult and two Junior Range masters each of whom has an assistant. The youth are usually very experienced competitive shooters who are members of our district shooting sports team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSScout Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 The Shooting Sports Director is the fellow in charge of a Scout Summer Camp Shooting Sports Program, that is to say, all of them. Gotta have the Camp School Course. The Range Master (or Range Officer, I've seen both terms used interchangeably) is in charge of the particular Shooting Sport: archery, BBs, Slingshot, .22s, etc. At CSDC (at least in our Council), the RM is in charge of the particular Sport. It is an adult. No RM on site, no archery, etc. He/she can have many jr. assistants (Scouts), and adult assistants but only one Boss RM at a time. Need a seperate RM for each SSport, each range. Scout assistants DO NOT run the range. He/she is in charge of layout, setup, running, opening, closing, approving the awarding of the Beltloops and pins ( the Packs do the awarding!) and safety and discipline on the range. The SSports course for RM is given by Council and overseen by the Program Director, who usually looks for a SSD with certification from a larger group, NRA, NAAR, IWL, etc. to do the class to BSA spec. Use to be an Archery RM, haven't been retrained in years. Lotta fun, but alotta work and you got to be on your toes with them Cubs. Especially the "challenged" Cubs, another topic...(This message has been edited by SSScout) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scouterclaude Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 I took the training this spring. Here is how my council advertised the course. "Details: For Pack Activities and Day Camp Range Instructors Training for volunteers who wish to be certified in running a BB or Archery range. This training is especially important for those packs that want to be able to run their own shooting sports activities and staff running a range at a district day camp. This certification lasts for two years." It was explained to us that we do it all from set up to tear down. If we run the range for a Pack it has to be at one of our council's camps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arrowhead Posted May 22, 2009 Author Share Posted May 22, 2009 Many thanks to those who've responded. It seems that, as so often occurs, there are variations on the theme. I anticipated that "Range Officer" and "Range Master" would possibly be synonymous. I appreciate that there are differences in requirements for Boy Scout shooting events and Cub Scout shooting events. What I did not expect was differences in rules and regulations between districts and councils. Best regards, RAFjr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SctDad Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 My question is where does this RM think htat he is going to set up the ranges. Usually the Camp Directors already have an idea where they want things set up. I hope that this RM is not planning on setting up for a pack event, as we all know that Archery and BB Gun shooting are restricted to District/Council Events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunny2862 Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 Sorry Sct Dad, but we don't ALL know that. In our Council a trained BB or Archery Rangemaster CAN operate a range for a Pack event w/o it being a District or Council event. Although, operating a Range at District or Council events is preferred due to the supposed wider use of facilities and greater exposure to the Spots to more boys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle92 Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 Gunny, It's been a while since I was certified, so thing may have changed, but shooting sports can only be done on the district/council level, usually at a preapporved spot. That was national policy. Now I've been recently told one way around that policy by a DE. A pack with a trained RM can do their own activity as a pack IF A) it is on a council property AND B) They open and advertise the activity to ALL packs in the district AND fill out the appropriate district papwerwork. That way it is offically a district activity. One thing my council's sea base has done is create a "CUB ON DEMAND" program where dens and packs can use the council faciltiies, including shooting sports ranges if they can get an RM, for advancement and loops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunny2862 Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 Well as with many things that are national policy - since it's being quoted - where is it written as national policy? If the SE and the NRA & BSA Shooting Sports instructor say it's okay then I have to wonder where the information resides - don't want to go to them with rumors and say I won't run a range for A Pack... Not trying to avoid the rules, just living in the box I know about... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle92 Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 Gunny, No problem. follow this link: According to the online version of the G2SS found here: http://www.scouting.org/healthandsafety/gss/gss08.aspx#a Cub Scouting Standards Youth members of Cub Scouting are permitted to participate in the shooting activities named in here only. Archery and BB gun shooting are restricted to day camps, Cub Scout/Webelos Scout resident camps, council-managed family camping programs, or to council activities where there are properly trained supervisors and all standards for BSA shooting sports are enforced. Archery and BB gun shooting are not to be done at the pack level. Cub Scouts are not permitted to use any other type of handgun or firearm. As I stated previously, there is a way for a pack to do it, just turn it into a district event Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scouterbill653 Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 Archery and BB gun shooting are restricted to day camps, Cub Scout/Webelos Scout resident camps, council-managed family camping programs, or to council activities where there are properly trained supervisors and all standards for BSA shooting sports are enforced. Archery and BB gun shooting are not to be done at the pack level. Cub Scouts are not permitted to use any other type of handgun or firearm. As I stated previously, there is a way for a pack to do it, just turn it into a district event, as stated above is the correct answer as i have just qualified two weeks ago and packs or not permitted to have a BB or archery event out side of a council managed event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjscout Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 Perhaps different councils have different use of the guidelines. When I was taking the archery training a few weeks ago, we were told that by renting the Council Camp shooting facilities, the shooting event became a council event, even if there is only one Pack there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle92 Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 RJ, If memory serves when you are renting the council facility, you are paying the use of the range AND qualified folks to run it. If your council's usage permit is like mine, there is a spot for your to mark that you want to use the range, and you pay the extra fees accordingly. Since the shooting sports that day are run by the council, not the pack, it is considered a council event. Yep some council's do that, and East Carolina has a Cub on Demand program that includes BBs and Archery. BUT it is through the council. A unit with a qualified person could nto set up their own range, and do it as a pack activity. They would need to go through teh council still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunny2862 Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 Thanks for the pertinent link! However, I am told that if I (or anyone else this Council has chosen and signed off on as certified) choose to operate a range, ta da, it's now a Council range. Talk about all Councils don't operate the same... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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