Dad & Lad, Mom & Me - and the single sex parent(s)

[sandspur]

Well, seems to me that an uncle, adult older brother, or whatever family member sent BY THE PARENT to camp with their scout can sleep in the tent with (and only with) that scout under Youth Protection Guidelines. I call them the Guardian in my book. A lawyer might have a different interpretation (and a lawyer that wants to file a lawsuit if something goes wrong will always find a way) Since the parent designated the family member as acting for them does that not relieve the scouts of responsibility for the parents decision? I might be wrong though.

Now the interesting question for me is how far does that go? What if the parent designates a friend or neighbor who is not a relative as the temporary guardian. Hmmmm. Now I get uncomfortable. Might want that in writing from the parent and signed. But thats just me.

What a shame we have to worry about these things.

 

[Beavah]

The issue is exactly what does "guardian" mean in the G2SS

 

No. The G2SS has no particular relevance when it comes to the law. It's just an internal document in a children's program. If yeh follow it and cause harm, you're liable.

 

If something bad happens during the night, like a lad wanders off and gets lost or hurt, you are quite correct that attorneys and juries would expect to know why yeh ignored the explicit instructions of the boy's parent and made a second grader on his first campout sleep by himself or with another child. Even though yeh thought it proper that your own child sleep under the supervision and care of an adult.

 

Does that seem reasonable to you? Mr. Cubmaster, do you value other people's children less than your own, so that you don't provide them the same care and supervision?

 

So, with due respect, I'd personally suggest dat it's foolish to interfere with a boy's relative and da parent's designated representative who is standing in loco parentis for the campout. If yeh want to reduce your risk, legal and otherwise, yeh let Grandpa share a tent with his grandson.

 

The passage in G2SS was meant to help protect scouters and non-familial adults from the appearance of impropriety and the threat of false accusations, and avoid opportunistic attacks. None of those are relevant in this case.

 

But that's just my personal opinion .

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Stosh]

Last time I heard the statistics, 7% of children live in a natural household of biological father and mother. 93% live in some other variation.

 

With that being said BSA cannot cover all it's bases in a situation like this. I realize the big whiz bang idea is "family" camping, but what about the custodial mom who remarries and the non-custodial step-dad wants to bond with his step-son by sleeping in the same tent as him. Now what do you do?

 

By the time the lawyers get through with this it's YPG is nothing more than paper with some writing on it.

 

The only real solution to this whole problem would be let the boys have their own program and the parents stay home. If they are registered leaders they stay in their own tents and that ends the whole discussion. If the parents want to bond with their kids, join the YMCA or some other organization that isn't specifly a youth program. If there ever is an organization called Family Scouts of America (FSA) then they can make up their own rules on how they handle these situations, but BOY Scouts of America should be running a program for the boys, not their families. I camped with my family every weekend when I was growing up and went with the scouts when they had their program. My family went their own way on those weekends and let me hang with my buddies. That's why I joined in the first place.

 

Stosh

[fleetfootedfox]

Maybe Dad & Lad is a bad idea for all the reasons people list or maybe it's not. However, this was a Council sponsored event with an alternative Mom & Me weekend and also a Parent & Pal weekend. We also did not tell the mother that his son could not go with another related male adult. We even offered to check if an unrelated male could go if he was willing to undergo the background check. None of these alternatives were good enough for her.

 

So, what you people are telling me is that the solution is to get rid of any father/son events? Sounds like throwing out the baby with the bath water to me.

[sandspur]

Again, Im not a lawyer, but it seems to me if Mom wants her second grader to attend the pack camping event, and cannot go herself but sends Uncle Mike to camp with her son, then Uncle Mike turns out to be the bad Uncle, who can go after the scouts? Only Mom has standing to sue. But Mom is the very one who sent Uncle Mike. Hard to make that case I would think. If youre concerned, get it in writing from Mom.

I agree with Beavah, I would not make a second grader sleep in a tent alone. Scouts (as opposed to cubs) are another matter. I have only once seen a scout sleep with an adult parent, and that scout had medical issues that the parent felt she had to deal with herself.

 

[NeilLup]

Hello Scouter 760,

 

It may seem like throwing out the baby with the bathwater to you. However, you are not the boy with no dad who cannot attend a council sponsored event because he doesn't have a dad. There is nothing that occurs on Dad and Lad that cannot occur on Parent and Pal. Other than making boys with no dad feel unwelcome and uncomfortable. What contribution to the citizenship, character and fitness of youth is accomplished by conducting an activity which welcomes dads but excludes moms?

[sandspur]

Though you call it Dad and Lad or similar would you really exclude a mom from attending with her cub? Not in my experience. Just rename it to something gender neutral and let the cubs have a blast camping!

[evmori]

Joe doesnt have the right to authorize medical treatment while a legal guardian has a court order allowing him to do that among other things.

 

Well, Joe might have the right! He might be the legal guardian! Don't get caught up in the wording! I'd bet you if Little Billy falls & breaks his whosits and Joe takes Little Billy to the ER, Joe will be the one the docs talk to & get to sign papers!(This message has been edited by evmori)

[scoutldr]

I think you're off base, Ed. Unless there is a signed and notarized Healthcare Power of Attorney (which is included in the old BSA Medical form), I think the ER doc will insist on contacting a parent, or get a court order, unless treatment is necessary to save life or limb. Especially with the new HIPAA privacy laws.

[Lisabob]

My son's cub scout den leader used to schedule Dad & Lad camp outs (never mind that they were Tigers, Wolves, and Bears and should not have been doing den camping anyway!) Well it turns out my husband seriously dislikes sleeping in a tent. So I went instead. The first time, you'd have thought someone peed in the DL's lemonade! She got over it though. Maybe because none of the other DADS seemed to mind and the boys barely even noticed (and certainly didn't care). Maybe because I'm not a real girly-girl, afraid of bugs & dirt, over-the-top-mothery type. Maybe because the DL figured out I'm stubborn and not afraid to stand up to idiots. I don't know, but to answer Neil's question, this was not ancient history - happened in the first half of this decade. Our district and council sponsor similar Mom & Me, Dad & Lad events but (as far as I know) do not actively restrict parents of the other gender from attending with their child. It is a suggestion I guess, rather than a rule.

 

On the other hand, I do know of families who left the program because the boy felt ostracized by these sorts of events. What a shame. Imagine how scouting might have helped those boys and provided them with precisely the sorts of male role models some of them are missing in their daily lives, but all that was lost to the boy because of one event that made the boy feel unwelcome. Is it so hard to come up with a name that doesn't appear to exclude a lot of kids? I submit that if we're serious about the point of scouting (building young men of character, anyone?) then we shouldn't embrace policies that drive away boys from families that deviate from our ideas of "tradition."

 

Stosh, I'm curious about your statistics. Do you know where the #s you cited came from? Based on a 2007 Census report (available here http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/marital_status_living_arrangements/012437.html):

 

"According to Families and Living Arrangements: 2007, some 73.7 million children younger than 18 lived in the United States. Of these, 67.8 percent lived with married parents, 2.9 percent lived with two unmarried parents, 25.8 percent lived with one parent and 3.5 percent lived with no parent present."

 

While it is true that the survey does not differentiate between biological and adopted children, it is unlikely that the vast majority of those 67.8% of children living with married parents are adopted.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DeanRx]

#1 - Call the Damn Campout a "Fun w/ Son" and get over it. The cub can bring a parent or guardian... either sex and concentrate on the camping, not the semantics.

 

#2 - WHY is it only when its a homosexual / lesbian couple or a non-1st degree relative wants to camp w/ a cub does this banter about the legal definition of "Guardian" come up? If the cub is sent with an adult over 18 to the campout, that adult is the cub's guardian for the weekend. No need to be checking who is tenting with whom, other than making sure no scouts sleep in a tent w/ an adult over 18 that is not their guardian.

 

You want to have a youth tent w/ no adults in it.... fine. We do it and post an adult on a cot outside the "scout's Only" tent, or in a small single tent right outside the door from the other tent in case a cub needs assistance for some reason.

 

Let me ask this... If "johnny" signs up to pack camp with his biological father who is divorced from his mother, and you KNOW he lives full time with his mother... does anyone from the pack question the 'dad' and ask for verification that he is indeed a legal "guardian"? The mother likely has sole custody of the boy, but sees the benefit of him camping w/ his dad. Does this mean as unit leaders we should require some type of "proof of custody" for ALL scouts before the adult accompanying them can stay in the same tent ?~?~? No, that would be crazy, yet if its a same-sex household, or an uncle, or a Grandpa, or a boyfriend of mom's, then all of a sudden everyone wants to force the two to sleep in seperate tents. WTF?

 

If a boy comes to a pack campout with an adult over 18, then that adult is their GUARDIAN for the campout. That should suffice. We already fill out enough dang forms just to be able to GO camping, you get into proof of guardianship / custody and it will KILL cub camping all together (not that G2SS and YPG isn't already trying to accomplish the death of the campout). Let the kid sleep with the adult they came with. Its safer for the kid and it won't force their 1st campout to be an unpleasant expierience and thus, chase them away from future events and likely from scouting all together.

 

Contrary to popular belief, G2SS and YPG does NOT trump common sense and acting in the scout's best interest as an adult leader. No matter how much someone wants to rely on the policy to absolve them from responsibility, it can not be done. If you're the adult leader, then you are responsible and should LEAD. If you aren't capable / willing to make this type of determination, I would suggest you strongly consider recusing yourself from being listed as an adult leader on the local tour permit. As you don't have enough common sense to be trusted to act in the scout's best interest and keep them safe via reasonable interpretation of the GUIDELINES.

[evmori]

DeanRx,

 

#1 Excellent idea!

 

#2 I agree! When we over think things we tend to get our nickers in a twist over things we shouldn't.

[Stosh]

My figures were from a study done by the Lutheran Church in America who differentiated among those that have been identified by the US Census 67.8% live with married parents, but the church broke out those that lived with married step-parents. With the divorce rate as high as it is, this causes that blanket number to drop dramatically. This also means that the parent could be remarried by the spouse has not adopted the child as well which is common. There is also the situation where the child lives at one home of a married biological parent during the week (meetings) and is under custodial responsibility of the other married biological parent on the weekend (activities), again causing problems in the program.

 

The issue being sought out by the study was not to identify children of married couples, but how many of them were unaffected by divorce, separation, and/or widowdom. The Cleaver Family model is no where near the 67.8% of the population and just because the parental couple of the child is married does not preclude other factors that the US Census does not take into account, all of which make an impact on the BSA program.

 

Add to this problem the fact that June Cleaver did not work outside the home and all the dynamics of working parental availability further complicates the issue.

 

With these issues identified, it is, in my opinion, not up to BSA to make adjustments for these many family issues when it is designed to provide a program for young men. Once all these other factors are considered and multiple attempts made to accomodate all the varying situations, it is the program for the boys that takes a backseat. And I find this unfortunate.

 

I'm not judging the situation, I too am from a divorced situation and can only attest to the fact that my oldest daughter achieved the Silver Award GSA and not the Gold because she dropped out of the program without my support. My son dropped out of scouting at the rank of Star for the same reason, and my youngest daughter dropped out of Girl Scouts for the same reason. I'm sure there are a ton of others who fall into similar types of situations.

 

No amount of programming changes on the part of BSA/GSA was going to help in this situation and to chase after it with family programs wasn't going to help either.

 

Stosh

[Lisabob]

Stosh, I agree that family programming "chasing after" societal changes isn't likely to work. I suspect, though, that the purpose of a lot of these family activities at the cub scout (Not Boy Scout!) level is not that closely related to changes in the traditional family. Cub scout camping, by definition, is FAMILY camping, regardless of who is in the family. That said, I think the point made by many here is, why create barriers to family participation where none really need to exist?

 

With regard to the #s - you are correct that the census study I cited didn't include remarried & step-parent issues. (It did specifically segregate out situations where the child lived with one custodial parent for most of the week. Those were classified in the single parent household category.) And conventionally accepted figures for divorce rates are that about half of marriages end in divorce. Of course that is irrespective of whether the couple had children prior to divorcing. So I would be prepared to believe that the percentage of children living with both married biological parents is probably a lot lower than 67.8%. But 7% still seems extremely low.

 

If you happen to have a link to that study I would love to see it. I'm really curious to find out more about how they arrived at that number.

[nolesrule]

While there is still the issue of non-divorce reasons for single parent households (prison, work in separate cities, death, etc.), those are a minority. And since 50% of marriages end in divorce (and what percentage of divorces occur after all children have fled the coop?), that means a large chunk of the remaining 50% are still a 2-parent single household. What about "starter marriages" that result in no kids vs. 2nd marriages that result in kids?

 

 

There are plenty of other variables to account for, but mathematically the percentage of children living under the same single roof as both their biological parents is going to be a lot closer to 50% than 7%.