Dad & Lad, Mom & Me - and the single sex parent(s)

[CalicoPenn]

I wanted to separate this out from the thread it was in because I think it something we should be looking at without it getting lost in a much, much (much, much) larger thread. Unfortunately, I don't have the capability to have posted Dan Kroh's response too (sorry Dan - maybe you could summarize the response here too).

 

The post said:

 

"There are two boys in my son's school who have "two moms". One of the moms came to our school night to join scouting. She seemed to be upset by the fact that when the other boys went to Dad and Lad camp, her boys would be left out. She wanted to send some other male with them to Dad and Lad. We didn't know what the rules were on this, but we suggested she take the boys to Mom and Me camp. She didn't like this, because her sons would feel left out.

 

You see, if these people have their way, we can no longer have father/son activities, because some boys don't have fathers and it's not fair to make them feel left out.

 

This is a perfect example of how these people want special treatment, not just equality. I have never heard any of the single, divorced, or widowed moms ask if they could send some other male friend to Dad & Lad in place of their sons' father."

 

I've seen plenty of cases where a single mom want her son to be able to get the full benefit of Scouting that the rest of the boys get, and that includes participating in "dad and lad" campouts (a lot of fun things can happen there) - and want to send a male other than dad to act as substitute dad. I've never seen this to be an issue - sometimes it's grandpa, sometimes it's an uncle, occassionall it's been an older (above 18) brother - and sometimes it's just a close family friend - yet I've never seen a lad not be allowed to go if he has a dad or a "dad" coming with. I can't see this being an issue with a Cub or Scout with two mom's either.

 

What say the rest of you?

[Twocubdad]

I don't read Issues and Politics threads anymore and didn't realize this is one until after I opened it. So I'm going to stay out of the politics and reply as if this were a camping/program question.

 

I don't think packs should be hosting parent-gender specific campouts. Cub camping is supposed to be FAMILY camping. Most packs don't go camping often enough to warrant such breakouts. In my experience, few families send both parents on a campout. Maybe dad works weekends or mom just doesn't camp. Parent-gender specific campouts would seem to create a lot of unnecessary conflicts.

 

BSA literature refers to "adult partners" instead of "mothers and fathers" in order to be as inclusive as possible. Creating exclusive situations seems to me to have more down sides than up.

 

[DanKroh]

Hi Calico,

 

I was responding to the implication that somehow wanting to take a non-family member to a gender-specific parent function constituted "special treatment" and that my son must therefore be one of "these people" (whoever they are) wanting special treatment because he took a non-familial female to a Mom & Me dance at school.

 

Frankly, such things happen all the time around here (along with non-familial males to Dad & Me stuff), and no one ever says boo about it or cries "special treatment" (perhaps the cries are lost in the fire & brimstone raining down on Massachusetts, or the dogs and cats living together).

 

Yes, I'm being snarky because it annoys me when people forget that there are many reasons why children may have parent(s) of only one gender.

 

Similarly, in a scouting context, I completely agree with Twocubdad; parent gender-specific campouts are a bad idea for the very reason that you may not have any idea why little Jimmy doesn't have a father/mother in the picture.

[NWScouter]

The problem with sending any non parent or legal guardian on any type of outing where they share a tent with a scout, it is against YPGs. Even to have them on outing such as a Boy Scout campout, for them to be there they have to be registered. We made older brothers (adults), uncles, grandfathers and friends of the family register in troop I was Scoutmaster. Parents and legal guardians can not be denied by the unit.

[scoutldr]

Last time I checked, I am a "single sex parent", too. ;-)

 

"More than half of all black children live in single-parent households, a number that has doubled doubled since we were children." - Barack Obama, June 2008

 

So I don't view this as a homosexual issue...it's a family issue. I have to agree with Twocubdad. The days of the Ward and June Cleaver household are over and we need to adapt to our constituency...or consciously decide to leave them behind because they don't fit our notion of the 1950's nuclear family unit. Cubbing is "family camping"...and, like it or not, the definition of "family" is very diverse indeed.

[HobcawChaos]

For many reasons other posters described, substitute "dads" should be allowed on events. Ideally for a campout it should be a male extended family member. For other events, maybe that could be loosened a bit. At a recent Father & Daughter dance, two girls in my troops had dad standins, an older brother and a mother, because their fathers were deployed. No way am I telling them they can't go while their fathers are serving our country.

[evmori]

The problem with sending any non parent or legal guardian on any type of outing where they share a tent with a scout, it is against YPGs.

 

No it's not! If the person accompanying the Scout is the Scouts legal guardian, there is no YP violation!

[erickelly65]

Evmori, I disagree. Someone that is entrusted to watch junior over the weekend is not (necessarily) a legal gaurdian not in a legal sense nor in the intent of the BSA. As a scouter, parents entrust me with the care of their children on every campout. That does not mean that I am that child's legal guardian. Nor can that child share a tent with me. The Guide to Safe Scouting's rules on seperate accomodations still apply.

[NeilLup]

Great galloping heffalumps!!! Do we STILL have "Dad and Lad" campouts??

 

I served on the National Single Parent Task Force in the early '80s. We identified "Dad and Lad" campouts as a problem for exactly the reasons identified and suggested that campouts which were for only one sex of parent be discontinued. We also recommended discontinuing the suggestion in the name that it was the parent who would be attending. That was twenty five years ago!!

 

The idea that we are ruining father/son campouts by doing this is so much horse hooey. Any father who wishes can take his son on the campout and for them, it's a father/son campout. How does it ruin matters for them if some OTHER boy's mother is the one who comes. It only ruins it if the father in question has a big problem with women or if for some other reason (religious?) he has a problem camping with women or believes that some unique male secrets (writing names in the snow,etc. ) will be compromised if some other boy's mother is there.

 

I had hoped we were long past this. I'm truly saddened that we are not. But from experience, I believe that if you bring this kind of thing thing up to the people that insist on the "Dad and Lad" weekends, you'll likely first hear about political correctness and from there, it will go to socialism and then Katy bar the door. It is even possible, although I hope unlikely, that this is a statement being made and a shot fired across the bow of this two woman household.

 

On the other hand, maybe I am overreacting. Are "Dad and Lad" weekends really scheduled or is this a concern of this woman based on what she may have heard? Is it a real problem? If there really are Dad and Lad weekends --ARRRRRRGH!!-- then by all means, send some other man. As mentioned, he simply cannot stay in the same tent with the youth.

[Beavah]

If there really are Dad and Lad weekends --ARRRRRRGH!!-- then by all means, send some other man. As mentioned, he simply cannot stay in the same tent with the youth.

 

Yah, I've mentioned this before, but I put it out there again for yeh to think about.

 

I think makin' a lad's adult partner who is being sent as a temporary guardian by the parent sleep in a separate tent is dangerous and foolish. You're strainin' at gnats and swallowing camels. While tryin' to protect from liability you're actually increasing liability exposure.

 

No rational man would find it inappropriate for Uncle Fred or Grandpa Joe or who drove the lad one-on-one to the event to spend a night in a tent with him. No injury would reasonably be foreseeable from allowing that.

 

But a rational man might find it very unreasonable for a 2nd grader to be made to sleep in a tent by himself because you forbid him from sleeping with his grandpa, even though you found it appropriate and prudent for the other boys his age to sleep with a familial adult. The average person would look askance at leavin' a 2nd grader alone in the woods, or with just a peer. If something were to happen to that 2nd grader in the middle of the night - wander off, get attacked by a critter because he had candy, etc. - then I expect most folks would consider that "foreseeable harm."

 

This is a case where stupidly followin' da guidebook substantially increases our exposure to risk.

 

If approved by the parent/guardian, I'd strongly recommend yeh let Grandpa Joe tent with his grandson.

 

Beavah

 

[erickelly65]

Beavah

You erroneously make the assumption that the only option is to have junior sleep alone. Junior can sleep with other boys, Junior's parent can come along (male or female), Junior can stay home. If a parent wants to let junior sleep with grandpa or uncle joe or some friend of the family...that may be fine....but I would get it writing.

 

If you don't like the BSA policy on this, take it up with council.(

 

My opinion on this is that a parent needs to come...period.(This message has been edited by erickelly65)

[scoutldr]

Careful...junior can NOT sleep with other boys, if they have THEIR adult partner/guardian/parent with them...correct? I side with Beavah. However...for the lawyers out there...what is the definition of "legal guardian"...is a court order required, or is a simple handwritten permission slip giving the "guardian" in loco parentis rights and responsibilities sufficient? What exactly does it take to get BSA off the hook and comply with the spirit of YP? To me, a "reasonable man", I would think a note from the custodial parent stating that permission has been granted for "Uncle Joe" to serve as the adult partner for the Cub "family campout" should suffice. Then if Joe turns out to be a "funny uncle", the BSA and the Unit are off the hook, having done "due diligence" to ensure the safety of the youth. Or have I been watching too much "Law and Order"? Or are we in the business to second-guess the judgment of the parent, even though Uncle Joe serves this role in all other aspects of the child's life, and in fact may be helping to raise him? Kids in this situation have enough baggage to carry through life...why add to it?(This message has been edited by scoutldr)

[evmori]

We seem to be getting wrapped up in a bunch of nothing.

 

Little Billies legal guardian can stay in the same tent with little Billy! So can Little Billies brother!

[NWScouter]

Ed, you are right, I was trying to make the "non" work for both the parent and the legal guardian. It didn't work.

 

The phrase "Legal Guardian" is set out in law and has specific rules governing it. It is not the same as "Joe is taking care of my kid while he he is with him at the ballgame." Joe doesnt have the right to authorize medical treatment while a legal guardian has a court order allowing him to do that among other things.

 

 

[erickelly65]

The issue is exactly what does "guardian" mean in the G2SS (Custodian, Legal Guardian, Designee, etc.)

 

All this isnt an issue until something goes wrong. Any incident occuring to Junior at the event either at the hands of the parent, the adult his parent authorized or by some one else and the unit will be under some scrutiny. At that point the BSA, it's insurance company, lawyers (BSA's/Parent's) and law enforcement are going to be crawling all through every decision made by the unit for that event including how completely you followed the rules and if not why you didnt. It will be up to your leadership to answer those questions and depending on their answers they can expect to be protected by BSA or left to defend themselves.