PINEWOOD DERBY DISQUALIFICATION

[PACK15NISSAN]

We just ran our annual pinewood derby on Saturday and given some changes that where made from years past most things went pretty smoothly. Until the very end. Let me give some background as to how our derby works. Each car runs 4 races within its den (once in each lane) and then the 3 cars in each den with the lowest score (1 point for first, 2 for second, etc.) are moved up to the finals. Since we have 6 dens, we ended up with 18 cars in the finals. Each car is then numbered from 1-18 and a matrix is used to race each car 4 times to determine an overall pack winner. Everything ran great until the end. During the last race, cars that had finished there 4 runs had there scores tallied up. There was a tie for first and since I designed the system I was asked how to break it. The entire race I was on a ladder setting cars on the track and racing them while the leaders of each den staged them. I went back to explain and noticed that one car had "illegal wheels" on the front. Our Pack pinewood derby rules (which was handed out to every parent when there boy got there cars, weeks before the race) state you must use the BSA wheels that come in the box. These wheels where not, so I called the parent over to tell him the problem. He informed they where wheels from his derby car 30 years ago and that he didn't know they weren't supposed to be used. Anyway, we had a quick leaders conference and a vote whether to keep the car or to disqualify it. It was a unanimous decision to disqualify, I told the parent and he suprisingly wasn't too mad (probably reacted better than I would have). After the race, the former CM (who somehow found out what happened) said that wasn't fair and since we inspected the cars we should have let it race. His opinion was that it was our fault and that once it goes into the "pits" it should stay no matter what. Did we over react? Should we have done something different? Considered something we didn't? I have an idea to eleviate this problem in the future. I am going to make each parent sign a log saying the have received, read, and understand the Packs pinewood derby rules before there boy gets a car. I will also mention during our Pack Meeting before the race and go to each den to make sure everyone has a copy, read, and understands the rules before the race. Anyone got a better idea?

I want the derby to be a fun experience for all so I really want to try to avoid problems. I know that there will always be something but I can at least try to minimize it.

[Nike]

This is one reason why the closest I get to the PWD is helping with spray paint.

 

For your DQ, I can see both sides of the coin. What do the official PWD rules say? Or is this not addressed? I probably would have erred to the DQ. Judges aren't perfect. We had four people look at a popcorn order form and not notice a total shifted into another column totally throwing off our popcorn counts.

 

For the future, getting it in writing is always the best course, nowadays.

[scoutldr]

Boy, am I glad my PWD days are over! As an objective outsider, I vote with the former CM. The last race of the day is NOT the time to "notice" that a car is illegal.

 

HOWEVER...the "former" CM has no authority and a unanimous vote of the current leadership should stand. What to do in the future? I would state in the rules that the "final inspection" is final, and once declared "eligible", the car can race and no further challenges to eligibility will be considered. Then make sure the people doing the inspections know what they are doing and what to look for. (perhaps a written checklist that each participant will have as well).

[Basementdweller]

The only problem I see is that it passed tech inspection. Seems the inspectors weren't very thorough. I assume once thru tech the cars were impounded. If that was the case he shouldn't have been disqualified. It was the inspectors bad.

 

I think I would have offered him the current BSA wheels and let his cub race.

 

If the car was doctored after tech then dq is in order.

[DeanRx]

We have a team of 3 inspectors. One does the initial car checks and if there is any questions, doubts, it is put to ALL 3 judges. A simple majority rules.

 

This is all done BEFORE a car is allowed into the pits and no changes (to include additional lubing of wheels) can be made once cars are in the pit area.

 

If this car was no in spec, it should have been caught and DQ'd BEFORE it was allowed to race - PERIOD.

 

If your track team failed to catch the issue, and it passed inspection, then it should allowed to run.

 

It was a breakdown in the check-in system that you need to look at correcting for future years' derbies. Glad it wasn't my kids car, as if it was allowed to run and win up to a certain point and then DQ'd - I have a BIG issue with the way the race was being handled.

 

Just my 2 cents...

 

DeanRx

[moxieman]

I try to keep clear of the derby races as much as possible. I was asked last minute to be an impartial judge for best of show at a local pack derby this past weekend. I didn't choose the car that should have won best of show due to illegal wheels. I pulled the CM aside and explained the situation and that whether or not his pack follows that rule, I couldn't choose it 'cause the cub would have been barred from the district event. CM said he'd explain the situation to Cub and Dad.

 

Suffice it I didn't stick around for that conversation. Said pack should have known better as one of their active leaders is the district activities chair who distributes the district derby rules to all packs.

[evmori]

The wheels shoulda been caught at the initial inspection & the car DQ'ed then. But since it was missed, or maybe the wheels were changed after the initial inspection, the DQ at the end was OK.

[PACK15NISSAN]

Our rules are handed out to each parent in writing and they state that: "Cars must use the stock BSA wheels that are provided with the Pinewood Derby Car Kit. No after market wheels are allowed". It goes on the say that: "Wheels may be lightly sanded on the rolling surface, to remove burrs and/or small defects. The BSA logo must remain visible on the outside edge". There are more but these are the two that we pointed out to the parent.

 

I don't see a whole lot of play or room for convienant interpretation in our rules. Yes, the inspectors made an error, but to be fair to them they where checking in over 50 cars and missing one thing (only the front wheels had been changed) out of all those cars wasn't bad.

 

Once cars are inspected and checked in, they go to our pits and they cannot be returned. If there is taken out of the pits, they must be re-inspected. Only leaders are allowed in the pits. Nothing car be done to the cars once they are in the pits, even if a wheel falls off (which has happened to at least one car the past 2 years) it can't be fixed. The only exception is if we have a car that won't even finish the track, we want to keep it fair but also fun.

 

My issues are like this. Only the front wheels had been changed, an obvious and intentional thing. I don't think they where trying to cheat but he had to think the wheels on his old car where faster than the present day wheels or why change them. The other thing is that the police give out tickets for running traffic lights when they didn't see it, the person was merely caught on the traffic camera (in some places).

 

Did we see it? NO.

 

But did he still break a rule? YES.

 

Should the other boys he beat suffer because this kids car got through inspection? I lean toward no but I am not sure at this point.

 

Should the boy whose dad made a mistake and had no chance to fix it have to suffer? No

 

Maybe we should have given him the chance to put on a different set of wheels.

 

 

[BeaverIII]

Is the former Cubmaster now an involved parent? If not-then thank him for his feedback-its a gift- and stand by your decision. Whenever interpretation of the rules is left to human beings there is the chance for a decision to be viewed as wrong Look at professional sports as an example.

 

As you had communicated the rules to the Den Leaders and the parents the error was on the Dad (who obviously knew it) and not the Pinewood Derby.

 

As to the idea of having parents sign a form stating they have read and understand the rules, I look to professional sports again. The Brady rule was just implemented by the NFL to protect the QB. Im not a fan of legislating all the fun out of things. Pinewood Derby is for the boys to have a good time.

 

[PACK15NISSAN]

BeaverIII,

 

I definately agree that the derby should be fun and that it should be for the boys. That is why we created an adult race this year so that parents might not take over there son's car in a hope to regain their glory days or in obsession to win. I think giving some of the dads a chance to race helped them let the boys do more on their own cars.

 

It may not be true in all packs but in ours the derby is a big deal. It seems to always come with some bit of controversy. Last year we told a boy that he had the wrong axles on his car (he was using a full axle not the "nails" that come with the kit which is against our rules). The boy told his dad who promptly jumped to the front of the check-in line and started yelling and screaming at us that our rules where "crap" (his words) and that our pack was stupid and they where leaving. We told him we where sorry that it upset him so much that yes he would be leaving. His son ended up getting the right axles and racing while dad stood outside and watched.

 

Oh, and the former CM is still a leader. He was not in the pits, so he wasn't involved with the voting which I am guessing is his problem.

[JoeBob]

Yes; disqualify the car for using the wrong wheels. To not do so would be totally unfair to the other Cubs whose cars followed your rules.

 

But you have highlighted a weakness in our own Derby procedure. We only had one inspector manning a highly accurate scale. Despite scheduling an hour for 65 scouts to check-in, our race started 50 minutes late. Cars were taking 3,4 and 5 turns at the scales to get their weight correct.

We should divide the inspection process into 3 steps, and have a seperate person for each step:

1- Legality: check the wheels, wheel base, axles, ground clearance and dimensions before worrying about weight.

2- Weight is where most cars will flunk inspection and be sent to the workshop table for fine tuning. We need to make a poster for the weight shop with examples of different weights. i.e. a penny = .0x ozs, a nickel = .0x ozs, a fishing sinker = .0x ozs, and a drop of hotglue = .0x ozs. This way the dads can get closer to 5 ozs with fewer trips back in line for the scale. For cars that are over weight, we can use small blocks of pinewood to give them an idea of how big a hole they need to grind into the bottom of the car.

3- Sign in paperwork and impoundment.

 

Hopefully these changes will keep us on schedule and prevent a situation like the one you had to face. Thanks for making me think.

[gcnphkr]

I'm glad I'm not a boy in your pack. Gez! Make a car, have it inspected then have to sit back and watch the adults race. Where is the fun in that? Adults and their stupid rules, let the boys race! Let them put their car on the track. Let them fix it when it breaks. Let them get graphite or Teflon all over themselves. And let them use any BSA PWD wheels they want! It should not have been DQ at the end of the race. The wheels from 30 years ago are obviously different. They are solid, narrower, with a rounded bottom--how hard could it have been to notice? Someone, especially with the fun stealing, control freaks that your pack seems to have, should have noticed it long before then and given the boy a chance to correct the error. BSA wheels are like uniforms, once an official PWD wheel, always and official PWD wheel.

 

Sometimes I think adults shouldn't even be allowed on the race floor of the PWD. Boys would never have these kinds of issues. They've ruined baseball, PWD, the Patrol Method, what next?

 

grrrrrr!

 

okay, I feel better now.

[PACK15NISSAN]

jet526,

 

Have you been to my Pack?

Are You in my Pack?

 

No, so shut-up man. You can hear the small portion I have told you and make a stab at how my Pack is run.

 

People like you who claim to let the boys do everything rarely do, and when the actually do it is only because they are to lazy to do it themselves.

 

Do our kids have fun, of course they do, they love the pinewood derby. Do we let them put the cars on the track, no way. If you let your cub scouts do so much, great for you, personally I think that is just stupid but it is your choice.

 

Do you let your boys teach other how to get their Whittling Chips? Do you let them book and pay for you camping trips? Come on now let the boys have some fun, give them the credit card and a knife and see how much fun they will have.

 

Your post was not necessary and frankly you pissed me off. I am glad I am not in your Lord of the Flies Pack.

[JoeBob]

From the rules that come in the box:

7. The wheels supplied with the kit must be used. The wheels may not be cut, drilled, beveled or rounded. You may remove the seam from the wheels.

http://www.abc-pinewood-derby.com/pinewood_derby_rules.htm

The box doesn't contain 30 year old wheels. The narrower front wheels were probably an innocent attempt to make the car look like a drag racer, not an insidious attempt to gain competitive advantage.

Who should have their 'fun stolen'. The Cub who broke the rule, or all the other Cubs who lost to an illegal car because they read and followed the rules?

[ghermanno]

Jet526,

 

Guess you'll be heading to District/Council/National to tell them thier rules are WRONG? You probably enjoy "passing the buck" so that District or Council will have to disqualify the boy. It is the Cub Scout Pinewood Derby run by BSA rules, not the Jet526 Derby. Feel free to run your own derby with your own rules but you should NOT berate people that follow the rules and still have fun.