Poor parenting at Council Dad and Scout weekend

[ScoutMomSD]

My husband returned yesterday from a council sponsored "fun with son" weekend at a local bsa camp in the mountains.

 

My husband relayed to me several stories about the poor leadership and parenting of the scout parents.

 

I will give these events but I guess if you are on BSA property, do they have any ability to "manage" folks who obviously do not have great parenting skills?

 

1) first was that at the camp where he was located a there were a large number of boys just running around while the parents were in their tents reading or somewhere else. My husband and one or two other parents were watching the kids. Periodically people would come over and say "have you seen so and so??". I am not saying in any way that kids should not be allowed to run around but in an area that has some steep drop offs, several bodies of water and lots of rocks, etc. shouldnt parents be required or have to sign something that says they will be accountable for their own kids?

 

2) second was worse. Before the evening campfire, there was an ampitheater that the kids were running up and down on. Your basic logs uphill around a cetral fire. My husband told my son to stop it as a couple of times he slid a bit. (NOTE my son is a 12 on a 1 to 10 activity scale). NO OTHER PARENTS said anything to the kids. Suddenly one of the boys slipped and hit his chin on the edge of one of the logs. His chin was sliced open deeply and the father (finally) came over. The fathers first comment (didnt even ask to call for help - someone else did) was "son lets pray about this".

 

The medical staff showed up and was asking questions to the kid who obviously has suffered some type of concussion or head injury (remember a short week ago actress Natashia Richardson DIED of what appeard to be a minor head injury). The child did not know where he was, or what day it was. My husband was there as he saw it happend (the parent DID NOT).

 

The father then said "well I will just drive him down the hill myself". Huh? The closest Emergency room (which on average has a 2 plus hour wait) is 60 to 90 minutes from the camp. The medical staff said they were going to lifeflight the kid out (ie the medical helicopter) and they had to TALK THE DAD INTO IT.

 

Hasnt the dad heard the saying "pray to god but tie your camel?". Ie GOD expects us to do what we need to help ourselves (remember Jesus was tempted to throw himself off a rock, he was smart enough to know personal responsibility wasnt he?). I am really shocked an appalled at a so called parent and so called scout member act like this.

 

PLUS if insurance costs go up (lifeflight is I believe at least $10,000 per flight) due to poor parenting, it makes me really angry.

 

Input? I know we are older parents and our son is IT, there will be no more and he is more precious than anything to us. We cant have another. We cherish our kids probably more than a lot due to this and what was involved in becoming parents.

 

I just dont understand with all the "codes" and "rules" why this happens and why parents dont seem to give a darn. I just hope these folks arent Den Leaders.

 

Input? I know I will get some "how could you say that" but come on. Arent our kids our most precious resource???

 

 

[ScoutNut]

Other than the issue of Youth Protection, BSA is not in the business of dictating what constitutes "good", or "bad", parenting.

 

It is entirely possible that there was a religious component to the father's attitude about his son's injury and treatment. While we might not agree, we can't do anything about differing religious beliefs.

 

It sounds like the medical staff did their job well. I do not understand why you have a problem with it.

 

I doubt that your personal insurance costs will go up because this one Scout was airlifted out of a council camp. Considering the location of this camp, the council most likely has had to airlift out other injured people before, and I am sure their insurance on the camp covers the likelihood of having to do just that. I doubt that just that one incident would be enough to have the insurance rates your council pays raised.

 

Free time is just that. If your husband felt the parents should have been watching their own sons during free time, he should have talked to the missing parents then and there.

 

It was not up to the camp staff to dictate what the families did during their free time. There should, however, been some camp rules. These are usually posted, or given, to all families. They are also usually covered at opening ceremony. The buddy system, a basic safety system, should have been in effect for all youth at the camp, at all times.

 

The running over the log seats before campfire should have been addressed, and stopped, by the camp staff running the campfire.

 

Did your husband fill out, & hand in, an evaluation sheet at the end of the weekend? That would have been the time to let the council, and camp staff, know of his safety concerns.

[Mafaking]

 

I don't know if I would indite our entire society on one kid tripping and busting his chin open.

 

I have seen what you are talking about at Cub Worlds. The kids are allowed to go run and play while parent A & B chat it up about the difficulties of raising children. The parents believe right or wrong that this is a cub camp and someone somewhere is keeping an eye on the kids.

 

What I have also seen is the camp director ban all sorts of things. No climbing in trees, no climbing on or over fallen trees, "stay off the stage. No playing with sticks. Cubs want to explore, see how far they can jump off the stage. Find out what's stronger the cub and his muscles or the flag pole rope. A balance needs to be struck between putting them in a sterile pen and letting them climb on everything.

 

If allowed to provide input on one of these cub worlds I would suggest activities for the night of arrival. Activity X, begins at 6:00 PM, with scheduled activities until 9:00 PM. Have an entertainer come in. Anything to sop up the unlimited energy in the cubs attending a campout.

 

As far as the guy's quirky behavior once his son was injured, parents usually make decision on the best interest of their child and their own experience. Parents and even the medically trained ski patrol for the cited example don't always understand how serious the injury is. The "I don't want to make a big deal out of this" likely stems from a natural reaction that nothing really bad is going to happen to my son. And $10,000 for and airlift is not to be scuffed at.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SctDad]

I would have to say that I am fortunatewhen it comes to cub behavior. The parents in my pack also support me when it comes to the cubs running around and when they need to behave.

 

Here are some examples:

 

We were at a district Veterens day campout. Not very big attendance, but when it was about 9pm, I told the boys that it was time for lights out. and yes I Even sent my boy to bed. The boys had some protest but the parents were heard saying that if Cubmaster Chris said that it is time for bed then lets go. A nearby pack could not understand that it worked that easy, but i told them that it was good with parent support and an across the board standard. All the boys went to bed.

 

Another time we were at a day camp and I told the boys to quit running around like they had lost their mind. The parents coralled them up and we had a small group game.

 

I think that if the boys are running around, yes the parents have the initial responsibility, but leaders also have a responsibility. But it ultimatly falls on the parents. If they were my boys and the parents were not helping to keep things in line then I would question bringing them on campouts, just because things like ScoutMom said could happen. I would hate to be a leader and have a boy who is seriously injured while on my watch.

[GKlose]

I don't have a ton of experience with this, but in the last two years, I've attended three large events. Two were council-run Webelos Arrow of Light weekends (so about half the participants were 10 years old). Saw pretty much the same behavior as you, minus the airlift. In one case, it was a kid that sliced his hand with his pocketknife. I know the kid and his dad (even though they were in a different pack than us) and I know the dad's attitude about "hands off" parenting.

 

The part that disturbed me the most, though, were the Webelos that were allowed to run around after 10pm at night, screaming at the top of their lungs. I don't understand how parents and den leaders can be oblivious to that kind of thing.

 

Guy

[ScoutMomSD]

I want to clarify one thing also - I am very grateful that we as Scouts have the opportunity to avail ourselves of this opportunity. In fact I am surprised that more families in our pack dont go (maybe because we have such awesome campouts?).

 

But to have the ability for a dad to spend a weekend with his child (I do the same with my daughter with Girl Scouts) and have a true "camp like" experience where all the activites are open. Its great.

 

One of the other things I wanted to point out is that apparently they had anticipated 400 people and over 500 showed up. So possibly there is some additional planning that could go on at Council level. Good thing "Mom" (aka ME) spent Friday running around getting food for my guys as they were the ones who ate well (the main complaint - the food stunk and there wasnt enough) - as my hubbie got up and cooked them bacon and eggs over the camp stove.

 

I agree there is a happy medium. I WANT my son to be able to run around and play "Clone Wars" with sticks, as long as the sticks arent pocket knives. In fact my husband really wanted to do the BB guns but my son had more times doing the things that arent readily in his weekly plan living in a suburb. But they did both catch really big fish and got to go boating.

 

I just dont like seeing kids paying the price when adults make poor choices - can we start a thread on OctoMom???

 

 

[Basementdweller]

Lets see, I had a couple of broken arms, several sets of stitches, bloody noses, bruises, contusions, poison ivy, poison oak, nettles, bee, wasp, hornet stings and other boyhood issues. Yes a couple of concussions too. Did that make my parents bad, nope.

 

I was a country boy, I fell out of trees, barns, embankments, bikes, tractors and minibikes, a few fights, crushed by hay bails and on and on and on and on. All though the venue for these boys activities was not optimal, they were just being boys.

 

Most Cubs are city kids give them a little bit of space.

 

 

[ScoutMomSD]

I have heard the "in my day" story from my in-laws as well as my husband who grew up in the midwest with houses backing up on open spaces and no fences. I am a native Californian who has grown up in the suburbs like my kids. There are pluses and minuses for each.

 

I am cool with parents chosing how they want to raise their parents in their own houses, as long as it doesnt impact on my kid. At a camp setting, I just feel that logic dictates that you keep control of your child.

 

Also in the "old days" parents were younger and lets be frank, knew less about raising kids. Many parents were in their 20's, and also most parents had a mom at home. Not so today. My son was born when I was 42. Twenty years gives me a lot more input into what the dangers are and possible implications.

 

I just dont agree with the "old days" concept. In the "old days" there were no seat belts, smoking was not considered unhealthy and there were a lot more TBI's (Traumatic Brain injuries) especially in CA as folks rode with no helmets. The average age you lived to was younger and there was much more "suffer in silence" with abuse to women and kids. Not so good.

 

My favorite saying to my kids is I dont care what other folks let their kids do, its me that makes YOUR rules.

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, ScoutMomSD, it's not just "old days", eh? I hope yeh get to do some international scoutin' at some point. As a culture, we're about the most fearful and controlling on the planet, eh? Just look at the thread about storm worries. I sometimes think kids livin' under dictatorships have more experience with freedom than ours do.

 

I reckon some of that is because families are smaller and parents are older these days. Yah, and because moms aren't at home. So when and older parent who is more removed from their own younger days has only limited contact with their one-and-only on evenings and weekends, it can be a hover-fest.

 

I think it's also true that a lot of folks aren't alert to courtesy. That probably hasn't really changed with time, just that as we get older we all see more of it. So it's common for some parents not to be aware of the courtesy issue to others of havin' their kids run around nuts all the time. Sometimes a word on the side to the effect of "Oh, I always try to think of what it's like for folks who aren't a parent to have to listen to my kid shrieking at 10pm. The boys need to learn to think about others." Light touch plants the best seed, eh?

 

I wouldn't get too upset about a parent who behaves idiotically when their kid gets hurt. That's pretty common, eh? Anyone who's ever worked EMS can tell yeh stories. Just too much stress and not enough knowledge, so their brain kinda goes haywire. Same as many husbands when their wives go into labor. Be compassionate. The guy was facin' something new and challengin' and just retreated to what he knew. Kudos to the camp staff for doin' the right thing.

 

Beavah

 

[ScoutNut]

I guess that I am unclear on what you are advocating.

 

What, exactly, do you feel the camp could/should have done?

 

If you don't care what "other folks let their kids do", then what is the problem? If your husband was actively watching, and participating with, your son, making sure he followed your rules, then how could the actions, or non-actions, of other parents affect him?

[ScoutMomSD]

a note - I work out of my house so am home and do all the stuff for the kids. In fact I gave up a 6 figure job 13 years ago to work out of my home when my daughter was born. So now I clip coupons, buy my clothes at Target and drive an old Volvo which needs a paint job. Because that was MY/OUR parenting choice. I am just lucky we are old enough to have owned property for a long time - we have friends who do not have the ability to make this choice AND put a roof over their heads. Just to clarify.

 

What I am advocating is that parents realize that when they are somewhere with the ability to impact children other than their own, they need to really PARENT and watch their own kids. As to what BSA can do, based on my understanding of the BSA, I doubt there is much they can do other than make sure their you know whats are covered in that they are not responsible for poor choices people make that result in injury.

 

Its like smoking or extreme religious beliefs. I am fine with what you do in your home, just dont advocate smoking or your religion to my kids. Flip this argument around. What if I was gay and I went to a weekend campout with my partner. And I went up to your kids and told you all about how I was gay and this is my partner and that is okay as all people are created equal. I know a number of you on this board would not be cool with that.

 

What I am saying is that when you are in a contained area that is not YOURS you need to respect other people, part of that being that your child does not have the right to upset the enjoyment of others.

 

Let me also tell you I have a difficult child. I love him more than anything but if unchecked my son would be the one climbing to the top of a 50 foot tree and trying to fly down like batman. I know first hand how challenging parenting is because I have to actively parent my son DAILY. And I also have a 13 year old daughter - heaven help me (if you have had or have a teen girl, you understand).

 

 

[evmori]

Bad parenting happens all the time! And a lot of times, the Scout leaders are the ones who have to deal with bad parenting and that poses a problem for the Scout leaders. In most cases, it's better if the parents don't go on Scout outings.

[Eamonn]

I'm very aware at times that I'm a product of a different time, a different culture and am fast becoming an old stick in the mud.

As a kid I think the expectation was that I been seen and not heard. I suspect that Sister Mary Matthew might have been a little happier if maybe she had never seen me? I can still to this day hear my English Master yelling at me "Are they wise words? A they they wise Roman words of wisdom?" When he caught me talking.

Of course on the other hand, I see that as a kid, even at an early age I had a lot more freedom to get out and do things without supervision than many of the kids I know to-day seem to have.

 

I can't help wondering if the Camp-staff had been yelling at these kids to not run around and not do what they were doing if the thread might be about Camp-staff Over-step Their Authority?

 

When we were first married we wanted to have four children and would have liked to have had four boy's.

Things didn't work out that way and we ended up with just the one.

I love him very dearly, but I'm not sure I could have managed three more like him!!

In First Grade he had a Nun who phoned me everyday to inform me what sin he had committed that day. A small sin meant 20 minutes on the phone a bigger sin could last as long as 45 minutes.

I think because of my early education I still am scared of Nuns! But this one was really getting on my nerves.

In the end I informed her that she was looking at this the wrong way.

I told her that she was looking at OJ as being a child of God, where as I was looking at him as being a little devil.

She stopped calling.

When it comes to poor parenting there isn't much we can do but shake our heads and give thanks that our kid isn't one of the kids involved in what's going on and if he is? A quick trip to the bathroom to hide always works.

Eamonn.

 

[shortridge]

"In the end I informed her that she was looking at this the wrong way.

I told her that she was looking at OJ as being a child of God, where as I was looking at him as being a little devil."

 

LOL! I love this. May I use it in the future?

[Basementdweller]

6 figures you say. and car that needs a paint job??????? Oh dear.....

 

How is that relevant to the discussion.

 

Does that mean your better than us or have a higher standards or you parenting skills are somehow better????????

 

The good old days, so you didn't like my analogy.

 

My point is give the kids some room to be kids. Let them get dirty, sweat, bruised and tired. They spend most of their lives being lectured and protected.

 

I love returning the boys after an outing smiling, dirty, smelly, and exhausted. Adventure that is why they joined Cub Scouts