Too old for Cub Scouts?

[Buffalo Skipper]

I have an odd one. I just got an email from our Committee Chair forwarded from the parent of an inactive Webelos, who I will call "Jimmy." Jimmy has been inactive since October because of a severe wrist injury. He was registered as a Webelos 1 last year ('07-'08 year) but was not active until the summer of '08. Originally he was in a Webelos den with his friends, but all the boys in this den crossed to a troop back in November, so at the beginning of this year, he was put in with the other Webelos 2 den (along with other newly registered 5th graders) who worked hard to earn their AoL in the minimum 6 months, and who crossed over to another troop a month ago. Of course, Jimmy did not finish 2/3 of the AoL requirements.

 

To make a long story short, his father is now wanting him to finish the AoL and then cross over to a troop. All his friends (old den) have been there for many months. To complicate this a little more, he was held back a year in school and he is only in the 4th grade.

 

Jimmy is an active boy (hunts, dirt-bikes, go-carts--the latter of which is how he broke his wrist in 3 places) and even before his injury, he was completely bored with the Webelos program; for the most part, he is emotionally and physically in line with the boys who long ago crossed.

 

I just wanted to get some feedback from the group on their opinions and perspective on this, before I speak to Jimmy's father.

[eagle77]

Being held back does not add anything to it. He must be 11 or have completed the 5th grade. If he completed 5th grade and is not yet 11 he could still join, if he is 11 and has not completed the 5th grade he can still join to the key word here is "or".

[Buffalo Skipper]

Sorry if I was vague. He has been qualified to join Boy Scouts since November. That is not in question. My question is should he stay in Cub Scouts?  And if no, how do I convince his father to have him transfer to the troop?

[Eagle92]

If he's been 11 since November, he is too old for CS and should be moved to BS. I would have a discussion with both dad and young man and tell them that Boy Scouts is where he should be. Further, i'ld tell them that he needs to start preparing for summer camp NOW by getting active with the troop and saving his money.

 

From the BSA Website http://www.scouting.org/cubscouts/faqs/joining.aspx#aa

 

FAQ: Joining Cub Scouting

 

How old (or young) can a boy be to join Cub Scouting?

Cub Scouting is for boys in the first through fifth grades, or 7 to 10 years of age. Boys who are older than 10, or who have completed the fifth grade, can no longer join Cub Scouting, but they may be eligible to join the Boy Scouting or Venturing program.

 

[scoutldr]

If he's been 11 since November, how did he get re-registered in your Pack for 2009? Doesn't ScoutNet prevent that?

[John-in-KC]

Let's be careful with our terminology:

 

JOINING Cub Scouts is a different matter from

 

CONTINUING in membership (rechartering) in Cub Scouts.

 

His mother and I held EagleSon back at K. It was an ages/stages thing for when he would be older. Had we not done this, he'd have graduated HS in 2007. Instead, he graduated 2008.

 

We had no problem whatsover keeping him a Web 2 and moving him through the program as an 11 year old. He was 11 years, 9 months when he bridged over.

[NealOnWheels]

I don't have my Cub Scout Leader's Handbook with me but I believe a scout can remain a Webelo until age 11 and 1/2.

[NealOnWheels]

I just re-read your opening post. It seems clear to me we should be looking at what the scout wants. He clearly would rather be in Boy Scouts with his peers than in Webelos where he is bored and would feel uncomfortable.

[Buffalo Skipper]

Yes, it was an issue of rechartering, not joining. I did check with our registrar before I made the post, and she made it clear either was possible, and that in fact, with a disability (not really the case here), he may remain in cub scouts indefinitely.

 

John, thanks for the example. How was your son in the 5th grade as a Webelos at 11? Did he feel out of place? I am primarily concerned about what is best for the boy. What I mean is which is better for the him, to be a 4th grader in boy scouts (where he may be teased by his peers) or to be an 11 year old in Cub Scouts (where he may feel detached from his peers)?

 

[Lisabob]

We had a couple of boys who were held back for a year but stayed with their original dens and who crossed over as 4th graders. Everybody in their former dens/now patrols knew it, nobody cared. The only place it came up at all was in scheduling because the troop's events had not been planned with any of the elementary school schedules in mind (all the other boys were in middle/high school). But that was rarely an issue.

 

From what you wrote about the boy, he'd probably be better served by moving into a troop. Your project is to convince his dad of this. You probably will want to get together with the SM first and figure out what this boy's experience as a new boy scout will look like - get your sales pitch together - and then invite the dad to meet with both you and the SM to discuss the options.

 

If dad insists on keeping his boy in cub scouts then put him in a den that will be quite active and encourage that den to do a lot of joint activities with the local troops so that the boy is getting enough adventure to keep him involved.

 

What, exactly, does he have left to complete his AoL? Depending on the unfinished requirements, he may be able to do it quickly. Don't forget that he can join boy scouts at any time - need not wait until next year's cross over to do so. Perhaps that would be a middle ground if dad insists that he wants his boy to earn AoL before moving on.

[John-in-KC]

There were boys both ahead and behind him who'd been held back on entering the public school system, so there was nothing too unusual.

 

 

[Buffalo Skipper]

The den leader (and the original members of his den) crossed to a troop back in November. He stayed with my wife's den (the second den of 5th graders). He has not even completed his Webelos badge, so at best, he has 3 more months. I am the den leader of the remaining 4th grade Webelos den, but I really don't want a focus on catching him up will be out of place for my den (and not fair to them). I will speak to the father and see what exactly where he stands, and go from there.

[twoodjr]

What you should keep in mind is what is best for the boy. I had a fifth grade boy who joined along with his brother in fourth grade. For the first couple of months, he met with Webelos I, to work with other new boys earning their Bobcat badge. This boy was very much an introvert (shy), so it was decided to keep him with his brother as a Webelos I. This was acceptable to his mom, and the distict/council.

 

I would have to say that if he was "forced" up because of age and grade, he would not have stayed in Scouts.

 

It is hard to determine what is best for a youth that you don't really know, but having him in his dens, you should be able to evaluate whether he is ready to move up to a troop or should stay and complete is Cub Scout trail. If he doesn't get his AOL but sees others with it, will this make him resent Scouting?

[John-in-KC]

IF the Scout concerned, especially in Cub and Boy Scouting, has a special emotional or mental challenges, then there are procedures to keep him in a program as long as he needs to be there.

 

However, there are upper limits on each BSA program if a child is inside the "normal" range.

 

Contact your District or Council Special Needs coordinator for details.

[Lisabob]

For the moment, let's assume that this boy actually does want to earn his Webelos and AoL ranks before joining boy scouts, and that his goal is to do so as quickly as possible in order to be with his buddies in the troop.

 

I'm not at all sure that you would need to spend much additional time or effort playing catch up with him and thereby hold the rest of the den back. Here's what I would do in that situation:

 

TO EARN WEBELOS RANK:

1) Webelos requirement 1 is done by the parents. No additional time for you.

2) Webelos requirement 2 (tenure) takes care of itself, you don't do anything. Since he was already a Webelos scout, he probably fulfilled some (all?) of this requirement in the past.

3) Webelos requirements 3, 4, and 7 can be done in coordination with AoL requirement 2. No serious additional time or effort on your part since your den will be doing AoL req 2 anyway. If you don't plan to do this anytime soon, see below (AOL req 2) for other thoughts on how this boy could accomplish these requirements without you needing to change your schedule.

4) Webelos requirement 5 (FITNESS) should be done at home. Most of the requirements explicitly tell the scout to discuss the material with a family member- not the Webelos den leader. No additional time for you.

5) Webelos requirement 5 (CITIZEN) can be partly done at home. Citizen requirements 1, 2, 7, and any two from 9-17 could be done by the boy with his parent, with a brief meeting between you and the scout to check that he has successfully completed them. That might take 15 minutes of your time before a meeting starts.

 

Citizen requirements 3, 4, 5, 6 can easily be incorporated into a den meeting, since most Webelos dens have regular flag ceremonies anyway. No serious additional time necessary here.

 

The citizenship beltloop requirements 1 & 2 can be done outside the den, and beltloop requirement 3 (service project) is probably something your den does in the normal course of events anyway. Maybe you'll need another 15 minutes of your time for the boy to show you what he did in beltloop requirements 1 & 2.

 

6) Webelos requirement 5 (ONE OTHER BADGE FROM ANOTHER GROUP) can either be done individually (think scholar or traveler badges, both of which lend themselves well to individual completion) or it could be a different badge that the whole W II den works on together. You'll probably already be doing some work on some badges with your W II guys anyway, right? No serious additional time for you here.

 

7) Webelos requirement 6 (flag ceremony) is easy to incorporate if your den already does flag ceremonies. If your den doesn't, why not? Consider adding these to the mix this year so that the guys know how to do this when they join boy scouts (where, as you know, flag etiquette and participation in a flag ceremony are parts of the tenderfoot and 2nd class rank requirements too).

 

Supposing that flag ceremonies are NOT currently part of your normal den meeting and that you decide to add them, we're talking about maybe an hour's worth of effort on your part spread over the year to guide the boys, and perhaps 5 minutes of time at the start of your regular den meetings to actually have the flag ceremonies. You could designate another parent to be the go-to-guy/gal for the boys in terms of designing their flag ceremonies, or you could bring in a boy scout/den chief to help with this so that you don't need to spend your own time on this. Now we're down to just the 5 minutes it takes to do the flag ceremony.

 

8) Webelos requirement 8 (religious requirement) is usually also done primarily with the family. Depending on what options the boy chooses he may also need to meet with you to tell you about what he did/learned, but that is not a den-wide activity and should not require more than perhaps 30 minutes of your time (if that).

 

So, with the addition of 1 hour or less of your individual time and some outside work/commitment by this boy and his parent, he could easily finish the Webelos badge very quickly. There's no need to disrupt your W II den meeting plans if this boy joins your den.

-----------------------------

Now on to quickly earning the AoL. Here you can work together with the SM from the troop that this boy will probably join. Designate the SM or an ASM as "Akela" for certain AoL requirements for this boy. There's no reason these couldn't be accomplished quickly by this boy and in conjunction with a willing troop, while he is still fulfilling the tenure requirement.

 

1) Requirement 1 (tenure) takes care of itself.

2) Requirement 2 (boy scout knowledge) can either be covered in your den meetings with your W II boys early in the year, or you could enlist a boy scout/den chief/adult troop leader to work individually with the boy on this.

3) Earn 5 more activity badges - this is probably the "hard" part since presumably you don't want to rush all your boys through all of these pins just for the sake of this one boy. So set it up where this boy works individually, with a qualified adult (not you!) to complete these. Then the onus is on him, not you, and he can be with his buddies in the troop while he works on some of the requirements.

 

Earning the OUTDOORSMAN pin:

Maybe you don't want to do all of the outdoorsman requirements early in the den's W II schedule. Fine. The boy can go on one or more boy scout campouts (with his parent) and accomplish Outdoorsman requirements 2, 4, 6, 9, 10, and 11 with almost no involvement from you at all - allow the SM to sign off on those requirements. While he is on these camp outs, he will be with his age/grade-based friends. You would need to schedule just one additional Outdoorsman activity for the whole den, early in the W II year, so that this boy can earn that pin with haste. That's hardly too tough! How about Outdoorsman requirement 5 or 7? Both make a basis for good den meetings.

 

EARNING READYMAN PIN:

None of these require that they be done "with your Webelos den." So enlist the help of the troop's best First Aid merit badge counselor. Set the boy up with him to complete the requirements for this activity pin and let him sign off as Akela. Or work with the Scoutmaster and get this boy invited to upcoming troop meetings where the troop is working on 1st aid skills. This boy could participate as a guest, right along side his friends who are already in the troop.

 

EARNING A TECHNOLOGY PIN:

Handyman and Craftsman are pins that most boys love earning, and can be done fairly easily and entirely on one's own if you don't want to schedule den time for these activities (but most boys really enjoy them so you might WANT to schedule den time!). If the boy does them on his own, schedule half an hour of your time to let him tell you about what he did before you sign off.

 

EARNING A MENTAL SKILLS PIN:

Scholar and Traveler are easily accomplished outside the den. 15 minutes of your time for the boy to tell you what he did is about all you'll need.

 

EARNING ANOTHER PIN:

Also easy in most cases. There are so many he can choose from and complete individually. Supposing that he wants to work on one that requires special skills, again, enlist a local merit badge counselor or troop leader to be Akela. For example, if he wants to earn Aquanaut, find out who signs off on the 1st class swimming requirements for the troop, and ask that individual to help out.

 

4) AoL requirements 4 & 5 (with den, visit boy scout activities/do webelos den overnighter or day hike): These require your help because you have to schedule them for the den early in the year. But your current den will need to do these anyway, and you might as well schedule them early, when the weather is cooperative.

 

5) AoL requirement 6 requires perhaps 10 minutes of your time to meet with this boy before he fulfills the remainder of the requirement on his own.

 

6) AoL requirement 7 is done with the family, not the WDL.

 

So your "extra" involvement boils down to about an additional hour to help him get his Webelos badge wrapped up. After that, in order to allow him to earn AoL quickly and move on to the troop with his peers, you will need to help the scout make contact with appropriate leaders from the troop, make sure those leaders know the requirements for which you are asking that they are serving as "Akela," and schedule one outdoorsman activity plus visits to a troop meeting, a troop outdoor activity, and a webelos overnighter or day hike early in your W II den calendar.

 

If the boy is motivated and if the troop leaders are willing to work with you, this boy could finish Webelos rank, earn AoL, and transition into a troop, all in the space of 3-6 months. During those months he could be participating in some troop activities as a guest to keep him excited about scouting and allow him to be with his friends. And the extra work for you is really very minimal.

 

Hope this helps.