Youth/Parent Attendance @ Pack ovenighters

[SctDad]

I was talking with some leaders from other packs the other night and we were talking about an upcoming campout that our two packs are going to do together.

 

The topic of parent attendance came up.

 

First Off I know that Tigers Must have an aduklt with them so that is not in the discussion

 

My qyestion is. During pack overnighters, can a Cub Scout attend without a parent, provided that we have:

 

Permission slips

Medical Forms

An Adult who is responsible.

 

I know that the Cub Cannot Sleep in a tent with another adult, so that would be remedied with the boys sleeping in tents together. So we already have the youth protection things in mind.

 

Remember this only applies to Wolves, Bears, and Webelos.

 

If this is something that cannot be done, could someone reference this in the G2SS. I will also be contacting my council office (DE) to double check.

 

I think I covered everything, if there is missing information, just ask.

[Hal_Crawford]

From G2SS Part III-Camping

 

"Pack Overnighters

 

These are pack-organized overnight events involving more than one family from a single pack, focused on age-appropriate Cub Scout activities and conducted at council-approved locations (councils use Pack Overnighter Site Approval Form, No. 13-508). If nonmembers (siblings) participate, the event must be structured accordingly to accommodate them. BSA health and safety and youth protection guidelines apply. In most cases, each youth member will be under the supervision of a parent or guardian. In all cases, each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult.

 

At least one adult on a pack overnighter must have completed Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation (BALOO, No. 34162) to properly understand the importance of program intent, youth protection guidelines, health and safety, site selection, age-appropriate activities, and sufficient adult participation. Permits for campouts shall be issued locally. Packs use Local Tour Permit Application, No. 34426."

 

http://www.scouting.org/healthandsafety/gss/gss03.aspx#bb

 

Looks like what you want to do is OK as long as there is a specific adult responsible for each youth and training requirements are met.

 

[Cubby's Cubmaster]

Hal is right. You can do it without one parent per child for wolves, bears and webelos. You'll need the a tiger's adult partner with each tiger. Have at least one registered leader be BALOO trained. Fill out the Tour Permit with your council if you are going to a place other than your local scout reservation.

 

One question to ask yourself, "Do you want to allow a scout to go without his parent/guardian?" Our pack requires at least one parent to go. We encourage families to camp with us. So, we often get Moms & Dads plus brothers (potential boy scouts) and sisters (potential girl scouts). As CM, I like having the parents present as discipline problems are few and far between if I can ask a parent to "help out" their child. I'd allow another adult to take a scout if the parent couldn't make it...but only as an exception. Our pack has 56 scouts and I don't know all the boys as well as I would like to. Having parents there helps keep things in control. Also, I have parents to help prepare the meals and run activities for the scouts. With so many potential volunteers our camp runs itself.

 

Regards,

Cubby's Cubmaster

[dg98adams]

I teach BALOO for our council and it is very important (and required).

 

I would find out who is trained. A copy of the G2SS on-hand will help that person if an adult does not like playing by the rules.

 

When I was a CM (and the only leader BALOO trained) on a Pack outing I had to deal with a Dad who insisted he had to have lighter fluid on-hand for "his" fire.

 

I had a private talk with him and brought the guide along. Good thing too, because I had 1st told him when I saw it leave his trunk. He resisted putting it away until it was obvious I was not budging.

 

Word of advice, get the parents/Cubs together when you get all the tents set up and have the BALOO leader give them the quick fire-safety/tent/buddy system policies (5-10 minutes tops).

 

Anyone not wanting to go along...should be encouraged to seek happiness elsewhere.

[AnniePoo]

In both our pack camping trips and Webelos camping trips, we prefer that a parent or guardian come with each scout. However, sometimes a scout will come with another scout & parents. We make it clear that if a parent can't accompany their scout, it is the parent's responsibility to find another adult (who is NOT a trip leader) to be responsible for their child, although I'll make sure the paperwork is in order. I'll also make sure that everyone involved is familiar with the relevant G2SS guidelines.

 

Sibs are very welcome to come on our pack & Webelos campouts, as long as the parent/guardian is also there.

 

I'd highly recommend talking to parents beforehand, or passing out a detailed info Q & A info sheet so everyone is on the same wavelength. This may be particularly important when two packs are camping together. If you PM me, I'll e-mail you the info sheet for our last pack campout.

[Basementdweller]

Cub camping is family camping. I am Baloo trained.

 

A few questions for the experts.

 

So what if you have a boy having some problems and you can't reach is parents or family?

Who do you call then? Children services?

 

What is an acceptable cub to adult ratio?

 

Are you looking to babysit for the weekend?

 

More importantly how many boys and how many adults. I would never exceed a 1.5:1 ratio.

 

A story or two........

 

I spent a very long weekend chasing a couple of young men who wouldn't stay with the group. Their parents and emergency contacts could not be reached. I called and left messages on cell phone, home and work voice mails and answering machines. I called my wife to ask her to go knock on the door of the parents and grandparents Cars in the driveway, but no one answered the door. This is Saturday before noon. So what do I do?

 

The CM is busy with his son, the other adults are busy with their sons, There are 12 boys and 4 adults. One adult packs his gear and leaves because he has a back ache..... You guessed it he left his son with us so he could enjoy the camping experience. that leaves me 8:1 with 2 threatening to run away.

 

A horrible camping experience, Never again. I will Never take a Cub age boy camping without a parent. Family camping period.

 

Summary, I asked for CM, COR and CC conference with the families involved in the above incident and was blown off by everyone including the DE. The families involved were "having a tough time" and needed a break from the boys. Yes I got yelled at by the CM when I tried to get the DE and UC involved. It seems that the CM knew of "issues" and didn't tell the rest of us.

[SctDad]

OK a little more information.

 

I am Baloo trained too, but the training cannot cover EVERY possible issue.

 

Besides that. The boys that I am refereing to taking without a parent are ones that do not have a problem with authority. In meetings I have asked them to do something, and they did it without any backtalk or complaints like some other scouts.

 

I also have a few boys that I would not take to the woods without a parent. Just because they have presented behavorial problems and shown disrespect to the leaders. I would require that a parent goes with them, because if we went to summer encampment, it is a good little hike to go to the camp, and I would hate to have to call the parents on the first night.

 

Everyone eventually knows who in their den will do fine on campouts and who will not.

 

dg98 - sorry but you lost me. I think I know what you are trying to say about the safety.

 

Basement

 

You bring up some good questions.

Most of the parents in our pack can be reached with only one phone call. The ones who I have not had a dependable number for, well then they are going to have to give something better.

 

As for the ratio. Summer Encampment recommends no more than 5:1. I would not go that far with Cubs. I think the closest I would get is 3:1 and that is not counting all of the boys. Like I said, I have a few that will REQUIRE parent attendance

[ScoutNut]

Why is it that you are even considering allowing Wolf, Bear & Webelos Scouts to camp on their own at a Pack overnighter? What is the point of that?

 

Pack campouts are ENTRY-LEVEL outdoor experiences. They should be based on the purposes of Cub Scouting, but should not be all about advancement. The main purposes of a Pack campout is FUN, and to get Cub Scouts, their parents, and their leaders hooked on camping, and the outdoors, and wanting more.

 

How can we grow a love of the outdoors in the parents if they are not there?

 

We want the adults at the overnighter to have FUN too. Both on their own and WITH THEIR SON. How can that happen if they are constantly herding, chasing, reprimanding, and in general dealing with, other people's children (I don't care HOW wonderfully they behave)?

 

Cub Scouts is a FAMILY program, not a drop and run babysitting service. The program is as much for the parents as it is for the boys.

 

If you have a Cub Scout camping without a parent, it should be an exception only. For the most part every Cub should have at least one of his own parents present. If there is a pressing reason why a parent can not attend, they should, in writing, give another adult the responsibility for their son for that overnighter.

 

BTW - I too am a BALOO Course Director.

 

 

[AnniePoo]

"If you have a Cub Scout camping without a parent, it should be an exception only. For the most part every Cub should have at least one of his own parents present. If there is a pressing reason why a parent can not attend, they should, in writing, give another adult the responsibility for their son for that overnighter. "

 

I agree with this. For our pack campouts and Webelos campouts, we tell families that we expect a parent/guardian to come with each scout, and that only if they absolutely can't make it can they arrange for their scout to come with another family. So far, parents who haven't come along have had legitimate reasons for not coming.

[Twocubdad]

I think you are setting a very bad precedent. The clear intent of the policy is for parents to attend campout with their Cub. To snark around the wording of the policy is asking for trouble.

 

The exception to the one-Cub-one-boy rule should be for situations like single-family moms with small children at home or boys who live with much older grandparents. In those cases the boy needs to be under the supervision of an adult who agrees to be responsible for him. That adult should not accept responsibility for more than one boy other than his or her own and they should not be the pack or den leader responsible for the program.

 

That, up until a few years ago, was how the G2SS policy was written. There are good reasons for the exception. We had a little guy who lived with his grandmonther who was in her 70's. Except for his den leader taking individual responsibility for this fellow, he would never have gone on a campout. On the other hand, folks will try to abuse the policy and try sluffing off their kid so they can go on golf weekends or just "have a weekend off." Nope, sorry. You tell your son the guys in your foursome are more important than he is.

 

And since our various bona fides seem to matter here, I teach the Cub Scout Day Camp section at National Camping School.

[AnniePoo]

Most of our exceptions ARE for non-traditional family situations, which have included (1) divorced mom who has infant at home and whose ex refuses to take his son camping, (2) single dad who has to work weekends, (2) single mom with multiple younger children, and (4) one family where both parents have to work at least part of every weekend.

 

Golf weekends? Not the parents in my pack. We're a small town that's been hit very hard by the economic situation. The ones who haven't been able to accompany their kids on campouts have had darn good reasons, and we're fortunate to have great parents in other families who are willing to go the extra mile to bring someone else's child with them. The precedent we're setting is that we're willing to help others out who aren't in a position to take their kids camping but want their kids to have the experience.

 

Unfortunately, it seems like more and more families in our pack each year are single parent, divorced, imprisoned, raised by grandparents, etc. Yet at least one of the parent/guardians in these situations recognizes the positive impact that scouting can have on their kids. These types of family situations, coupled with significant and widespread financial hardships, makes it even more important for other families in the pack to pitch in and help out if they can. And they do.

 

It's about getting the kids camping. And we do.

[SctDad]

Would it be right to say that everyone on this board is just about a trained BALOO trainer/director

 

Scoutnut

 

YOu ask why I would even consider taking a Cub Camoing if his parents can't go.

 

Here are a few examples

 

One boy's mother works 2 or three jobs, and his father (Parents divorced) is not allowed to go with us because he does drugs and cannot go without.

 

Another. Mother strung out, other scout parent bring him with her son. Haven't seen his parents in months, but he comes, does the work and is improving with his attitude.

 

So these two boys should be told, if your parents cannot come you are not allowed to go camping.

 

That is what you come across sounding like

[ScoutNut]

>> "So these two boys should be told, if your parents cannot come you are not allowed to go camping. That is what you come across sounding like " >>

 

Then you obviously did NOT read my post.

 

What I stated, quite clearly, was -

 

>>"If there is a pressing reason why a parent can not attend, they should, in writing, give another adult the responsibility for their son for that overnighter.">>

 

What YOU "come across sounding like" - From your posts it sounds like you are planning a dual Pack campout that includes parents for the Tigers, because they must be there, but only a ratio of approximately 3:1 for ALL Wolf, Bear, & Webelos Scouts.

 

Nowhere did you state your question was for 2 specific boys ONLY.

 

 

 

 

[Basementdweller]

I am Baloo trained, Not an Instructor. But I have some experience with the camping you are asking about. Just trying to help you avoid problems I experienced, trying to be a nice guy and Super Cub Master. Responsible for boys, trip, entertainment, cooking and everything else. Bring parents along just helps out, that way your not responsible for them for the entire weekend.

 

The two examples you posted would depend greatly on the young men.

 

I would start small and not take more than one or two boys without parents. As suggested, and I agree with 100%, another parent needs to be responsible for them. If you are trip leader you cannot be responsible for a boy not your son.

[DeanRx]

I would say only take a cub w/out a parent in very RARE cases. I am BALOO trained and full of common sense (if that matters at all)...

 

Positives that I see:

 

A kid that otherwise wouldn't get to camp, gets to camp.

Taking a scout our of a bad home environment for a weekend can have a positive lasting impression of the kid.

A scout w/ disabled family members (I had a buddy as a youth who had both parents blind), if my dad hadn't ever asked him to tag along fishing, the kid would likely never fished in his life.

Sometimes the PARENTS are the discipline problems - get them out fo the way and the kid acts OK

 

Negatives that I see:

1) The whole YPG issue - what happens if "johnny" gets homesick and can't / refuses to sleep in the 'scout's only' tent? You're between a rock and a hard place.

 

2) Discipline - I hate having to do it to other people's kids, but I will if I have to. Make DANG sure the scout's parents know that you will be disciplining their child if need be and discuss appropriate punishments (if need be) - with the parents BEFORE you agree to take the scout w/out an adult.

 

3) Scout feels "left out" b/c they are the only one there without a parent.

 

4) Limited / lack of actual supervision b/c you've spread yourself too thin.

 

My advice - do it only if you have to. Otherwise, be an advocate for the scout. Mom and Dad divorced, Dad's not around and mom works weekends, then does this scout have an uncle, grandfather, cousin or older brother (over 18 y/o), that can go as their "adult partner" on the campout? If so, utilize these people and offer to help set up the tent, loan them equipment, etc...

 

The last thing you want to do is not include a scout that wants to camp. However, be very careful about overestimating your ability to organize a pack, lead a campout, be responsible for someone else's son, oh yeah and STILL have some time left over to devote to your own offspring so they don't feel like THEY don't have a parent at the campout.

 

If you do decide to take on the challenge of having some of the scouts attend w/out a guardian, I STRONGLY suggest you recruit some volunteers from other families in the pack that are able to have BOTH parents (or two adults) from the same family going. Then one of those adults can be the responsible party for the "lone" scout.

 

I had a campout w/ a single mom. Her son and another scout in the same Den are best friends. Scout #2 was not going to go camping b/c his parents both had work conflicts for the weekend. Solution was that single mom's sister (over 18) came along and acted as the "adult" for scout #2. The two scouts shared a tent and the mother and sister of the first scout shared a tent. No violation of YPG and every scout had a one-to-one ratio of adults with them for the weekend. Everyone had a good time.

 

Good luck on this one. Its one of the harder issues faced by adult leadership at the cub level.

 

YiS,

 

Dean