Atheist in the Pack

[SSScout]

Webelos is a transitional program. If the Cub and his parents have fully utilized the Cub program, they should be aware of the religious component. If nothing else, the Webelos Leader should help them to be aware. It should not be necessary to "kick out" a Scout. It should only be necessary to remind them of the soon-to-be-promised Scout Promise and the already recited Cub Scout Promise. We are asking the Cub (and his parents?)to seriously consider what his "duty to God" is.This is ,admittedly, not the same for all.

As has been said before in these forums, Scouting is (or should be) a self selecting group. We ask the Scout to agree to use the Scout Law and the Scout Promise as the ideals of their life. "A scout is Trustworthy". If he truly agrees with the ideals we promulgate, we are in business. If not, then it might be suggested that he consider resigning. If the boy is of one mind and the parents another, I don't think we have the biggest problem.

Is it the duty of the Webelos leader to "kick out" a boy from Scouting? No, I don't think so. Should he insist on everyone being aware of the Scouting ideals? Most certainly. Should he insist on ONE type of Duty to God? No. How can he?

There are other worthy youth groups out there that have no religious component.

[Lisabob]

I recognize the BSA's right to have this policy, though personally I find it short-sighted. But arguing about the utility of the policy probably belongs in the issues & politics thread.

 

As for parents signing off on webelos achievements - actually, the DL can delegate that responsibility to whomever they choose. Many DLs I know (including me, when I was one) delegated signing responsibility to different adults, for different requirements, depending on the expertise of those adults. We had the guy who is a forester with the state dept of natural resources sign off on the boys' forestry pin. We delegated the religious requirements to each boy's parents and/or religious leaders, after discussing the intent and the boundaries of that requirement with the parents. Our pack, chartered by a public school PTO, felt it was not the pack's place to engage in religious instruction and that at the cub level, this was better handled by parents. The pack also helped boys who were interested arrange to work on the appropriate religious emblem, but the pack itself did not sign off on that, either. Parents and religious leaders did.

[PACK15NISSAN]

First of all, if this boy is an atheist then everytime he has said the cub scout promise he had lied and his parents have looked the other way. How can you promise to do your duty to God if you don't believe God exists. He might as well say he promises to be kind to all unicorns and leprecons.

 

Secondly, he can't complete the requirements for his Webelos rank because doesn't believe in God. There is no religous emblem for atheists (no Me and Me or the Big Bang and Me program). That leaves out 8d as an option, so he must do 8e. There are no parts of 8e that an atheist could trully and honestly do, not without some looking the other way and modification which isn't allowed.

 

Finally, the rules are clear, if he is atheist he must go. If he or anyone else doesn't like it then you don't have to be a part of this private organization. I would love to see him join the school basketball team and say that he doesn't believe in dribbling the ball so he shouldn't have to. Rules are rules, if you don't like them then don't play.

 

As far as others signing off on Webelos Advancement, yes it is allowed however when you appoint some one they should understand the requirements before signing off. If his parents are atheists then they can't understand the religious requirements and therefore should not and cannot sign off.

 

Have a conference with the boy, his parents, the COR and the Cubmaster and maybe even some people from your council and discuss the matter first.

 

I do disagree with those who think a DL doesn't have a say in this. As a WDL, if I had a boy who was an atheist I would bring it the attention of the CM and COR. Also, I would not give the boy his rank because of the religious requirements until all things had been cleared up.

 

 

[Lisabob]

Nissan, I don't think anybody said the boy's DL should not have a voice in this. The original poster is not the boy's DL though. Nor do I read very many people's responses (and also not my own, although I do not agree with BSA policy on this) as saying that if the boy actually is an atheist, that he still meets the membership requirements. The bigger question is, on what basis have people in the pack determined that he is an atheist to start with? Sometimes people have a tendency to jump to erroneous conclusions when it comes to this kind of thing.

 

In fact I was reminded of this just the other day. My son (a high school-aged teen) came home from school kind of laughing about a similar situation. A classmate had informed him that a) he was an atheist and b) he would be going to hell, because he does not subscribe to her particular version of Christianity. Never mind whether he is another variation of Christian, whether he adheres to some other non-Christian religious belief, whether he is merely uncertain or "unchurched," or what. Nope, she made this conclusion: "You don't believe what I do. Therefore you're an atheist." Happens more frequently than one might like to think, among both youth and adults, especially those who have an evangelical bent to their beliefs. So, is the kid really an atheist at all? Who knows? But I hope the pack's leadership takes a moment to assess before kicking the kid out.

[Trevorum]

I had a similar discussion recently with a friend who was absolutely convinced that Pagans were atheists. Simply because they did not believe in the Judeo-Christian God. (This is clearly not the BSA's useage of the term.)

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Of course you should kick him out immediately, just as you should kick out an 11-year-old Jew if you belonged to a no-Jews club. In fact, not kicking out the kid as soon as possible might give him the dangerous idea that he can be the 'best kind of citizen,' instead of the second-class citizen he clearly is. There are too many uppity atheists in the world already, creating chaos by buying advertisements on buses and having people with actual science degrees debating those who uphold the wisdom of sheepherders and fishermen of centuries ago, who, though wrong or ignorant of nearly everything about the universe, were clearly and absolutely right about metaphysics and were on intimate speaking terms with the creator of the universe. Which is why all religions agree on what god thinks.

 

Please check sarcasm detector before replying.

[PACK15NISSAN]

Lisabob:

To be fair you did say that the boys DL did not have a say in this.

Maybe I missed it, but what exactly is your role in the pack? Are you the Committee Chair, Cubmaster, or Charter Org. Rep? If not I would say that you need not do anything because it isn't your responsibility to deal with this issue. Supposing that you ARE in one of those roles though...

That is from your earlier post.

As far as my other comments, they stem from comments from Knight saying:

As long as there is some spark there (ie, not complete rejection of the Almighty under any name or form), he can continue. But, this is also crucial parent decision. They can sign his requirements as Akelas - and the religious requirements are squarely their responsibility. If they totally reject God, then yes, it is time to part company. If they complete the exercises (and sign their son's book), then he stays. Nobody but the parents could sign the boys "Duty to God" requirements in the Packs we've been in.

and also from ScoutNut:

The bottom line is that in Cub Scouts, even for a Webelos, the religious requirements are the sole responsibility of the parents. For a family that has no "official" religious affiliation, the parent is considered the boys "religious leader". If the parents state that their Webelos has "done his best", and requirement #8E has been completed, than that, as the saying goes, is that. It is wrong to second guess it, and wrong to question, at this point, what the boy has meant for the last 4.5 years when saying the Promise.

It is not the parents sole responsibility. A leaders job is not only to lead the boys, but to assist them in there growth and advancement within scouting. If you know parents are atheists then they should not be able to sign off what they feel is fair, this demeens the achievement for all the other boys.

Whether the boy is an atheist or not matter in earning his religious requirements at this age. I agree that a boy his age is not capable of fully deciding whether he believes there is a God or not. Let's look at the requirements, he can't do 8d because there is no religious emblem for atheists, therefore he must do 8e. None of the parts of 8e can he legitimately do if the family is atheist because it is not a religion, rather a lack there of.

Allowing the parents to sign off of this would not be bending the rules, it would be breaking them.

I have said and agree that everyone needs to sit down and discuss things to find out exactly what this families belief system is but if they are atheists then they don't belong in scouts. Whether or not everyone agrees with me, I don't really care. Just know this is how it would be handle in my pack.

Also, Scoutnut: it is not wrong for a DL to question the advancement of a scout, it is their duty. If I suspect a boy did not do something that their parents signed off on, I talk to the boy and if I feel he probably didn't do it, then I go to the parents and discuss that the WDL signs off on advancement and that I need to see what he has done. Doing your best is not simply handing out advancement and rank for trying or attempting, if you think that, then perhaps it is good that you are not in my pack.

[Lisabob]

Excuse me Nissan, but I excluded DL from that particular snippet because I already knew (from previous posts) that this poster is not the boy's DL. I did not know whether the poster is in another position that would make his opinion relevant to the matter. Nowhere did I say that boy's DL has no role - rather, that the original poster might not have a role.

 

 

[Beavah]

Yeh mean "Busy Body" isn't a role?

 

Tarnation!

 

How come almost every scout unit seems to have one assigned then?

 

B

[aquaticeagle]

This will be an issue but it definitely should not be. A child as young as Webelos age is most likely not mature enough and does not have enough information about the world to make such an important and life-changing decision. The leaders should talk to the kid but he should not be punished at such a young age for a decision that most kids aren't capable and shouldn't be expected to make.

[TheScout]

One would think even the smallest of children would be able to tell who created him/her.

[Novice_Cubmaster]

"One would think even the smallest of children would be able to tell who created him/her." - they can! Mom & Dad.

 

Children don't inherently give a hoot about religion & God. The best most can do is parrot back whatever they hear or are taught that gets a positive response from Mom & Dad.

 

Is this kid really an atheist - probably not. Any more than the Catholic kids are really Catholic, Jewish kids are really Jewish, Baptist kids are really Baptists, or Muslim kids are really Muslims.

 

It's deluded adults that make the religious molehill into a Scouting Mountain. And its a shame that it might be the hill the BSA chooses to die on.

 

NC

 

 

[MileHighScouter]

Novice Cubmaster -- Absolutely!

 

The number of Boy Scous has now dropped to less than 1 million boys -- in a nation of 350 million plus people. Less than half the Boy Scouts attend summer camp. Cubs are doing little better, reporting in at 1.6 million, with less than a third participating in day camp. Venturing is at a quarter million. So, add it up, of the 4.6 million youth members that BSA reports to Congress, only about half are in traditional scouting units. All the rest are in the Exploring/Learning for Life division, which is co-ed and runs mostly after school programs in elementary schools.

 

We have enough trouble recruiting scouts, keeping them in the units, keeping developers and neighbors from closing scout camps, and all the rest, do we REALLY need to be constantly bringing politics and religion into every darn thing!

 

This thread started out with a real problem for a unit leader. It then roared off into left field on the pledge of allegience, when religious consciousness occurs, and politics. Yeeessssh.

 

Remember, in polite company one never discusses religion or politics. Wonder when we forgot that.....

 

[aquaticeagle]

"In fact, not kicking out the kid as soon as possible might give him the dangerous idea that he can be the 'best kind of citizen,' instead of the second-class citizen he clearly is."

 

Wow...can you be more insulting and terrible? You're calling this kid a second-class citizen? I sincerely hope you aren't a registered leader in any scout unit because you sound like the worst kind of person to be setting an example for growing youth.

 

Children do not automatically have any clue of the origins of the universe or how they came to be in it. That is taught and brainwashed into them from a very young age and it's wrong. Children (young scouts) should be concerned with being outside and enjoying themselves, learning how to treat their fellow man and how to live a productive life. That is what I learned as a scout and it has served me well for many years. I did not learn to judge children by beliefs that they most likely are not mature enough to be sure of yet. If what you say here is truly what you believe Merlyn_Leroy, I pity any scout who is under your "leadership".

[aquaticeagle]

"One would think even the smallest of children would be able to tell who created him/her."

 

I would never think such a thing. If this were true then why are there so many religions with so many ideas?