not mature enough to crossover?

[Gunny2862]

I kind of like the crossover Buffalo Skipper describes as long as there is some kind of ceremony at the campfire for the Webelos to crossover into Scouting. I think it's a neat idea.

 

[SR540Beaver]

scoutldr,

 

I'm not the one who said their NSP does not participate in the camporee, but ours doesn't either. While we seem to get new scouts thru the whole year, we get the bulk in February and March. Our district for some reason has always done the camporee in March. For most of the NSP, this is their first campout with the troop and they are learning how to set up our patrol tents and patrol site along with a lot of other things. Many are just meeting for the first time and they are in no way ready to compete with the big dogs. Finally this year, we convinced the district that the logical thing to do was swap the spring Camporee with the fall Webelos Woods. This at least gives the NSP half a fighting chance to get some skills under their belt prior to Camporee. In fact, they will most likely already be moved to a regular patrol by that time.

[Buffalo Skipper]

Gunny,

I actually do like the ceremony. They have the OA come out and to the crossover, full regalia, drums--real maaningful stuff. My objection is to the place and timing. This pack has a large troop associated with it. This year the pack will have boys crossing over to 4 troops and the the packs expect all 4 troops to attend. This, along with the 100 or more cubs and parents just makes for a difficult situation. Also, out troop has already make plans and reservations for the same weekend, so we will have to rearrange our schedule to attend.

 

When I spoke to the pack CC, I was told that it is a nice transition opportunity for the parents, to have their boys close the first night out. I say hogwash! First, if the boys are no longer part of the pack, then the parents should not be camping with the pack. Second, if the concern is the parents, I can solve that by talking to the parents before they join. I don't really like the idea of some other pack trying to dicate our troops camping policies "to make the parents feel at ease."

 

Our district also has a March camporee. If our troop were to attend, it would be the first campout with the new scouts. I believe that the first camping experience should be a little less intimidating, and more "typical" than a camporee. My idea is, though, that the troop should be making their spring campouts a positive experience for the new scouts, teaching them skills and getting them used to a patrol and troop. routine. Making their first campout a skill competition in a multi-troop environment where all patrols are packed into a 100' square campout hardly supports this. Fall Camporee? Sure, I am all for this participation. In fact I really like the ideas of this, but not as they cross over.

[Stosh]

>>>> "they don't participate in the camporee per se"

 

>>>>Well, why in the world not??? Are they not members of your Troop? What better way to get them functioning as a patrol!

 

This is, for many of the boys, the first time they have been on their own camping. This is the time for the TG to help them through the process step by step. Most of the time at camporees there is a schedule that the boys are following. There shouldn't be that time constraint/pressure placed on these new scouts. If it takes them a little longer to get their fire started, cook their breakfast and clean up, it might just be enough time for the second scout to step in and start lunch and go through the whole process once more, finishing up just in time for the next boy to start all over with supper. The boys need to learn to do it right, not fast. They can work on speed in the future.

 

The process is dictated by the TG who's responsible for walking these boys through the learning curve without some scheduled time table. These boys are in their patrols, separated from the troop by as much room as possible and are working with their TG only. This is the normal course of action for the NSP's.

 

If one has a legacy patrol that has taken on crossover boys, they will press the process and make the schedules. What happens in this, however, is what I illuded to in another post, their leadership development is held back a bit, but they have more than just a TG to help them along. They may have a 1:1 older boy/younger boy ratio and won't take as much time to work through the learning curve whereas a TG may have a 1:8 ratio and need the time to make sure everyone is progressing and enjoying the time on the outing.

 

A lot of our camporees are patrol competitions which will put heavy pressure on this boys to provide knowledge in skills they haven't been taught. The boys feel that spending quality time in patrol camp learning how to build a fire correctly is better than going to a competition and not knowing what is even expected of them.

 

This process of shakeout is something the older boys felt was necessary if they are going to have enough time to help these boys do it right the first time. Quality can't be rushed.

 

As far as patrol dynamics are concerned, they learn from this process that as a patrol of 6-8 boys there's no one there except the TG to get them through the weekend (barring an emergency of course) and they have to turn to each other to make it work.

 

It's a great patrol building process that has worked in the past for the boys and they wish to continue it. I haven't heard any complaints from the new boys either. They like the more relaxed non-schedule.

 

Mostly the NSP boys participate in a.m. and p.m. flags, and the campfire in the evening where they can cheer on the legacy patrols that were able to compete.

 

Stosh

[bearshark]

OK, let me throw this out there as well, not only is our troop not accepting them until they graduate 5th grade, but I just found out that it appears the troop CC has made this decision on his own.

Can he do this without it being a committee vote?

[2eagles]

Are you sure you think this would be a good place for your son? Starting out with problems is not usually a good sign.

[Buffalo Skipper]

Actually, he can't do it with or without a committee vote. These are BSA eligibility requirements. Any committee (or committee members) who thinks they can change this are really out of step with the purpose of Boy Scouts.

 

I would really consider joining a different troop. Earlier today I posted this in another topic, but I will repeat, as it is a good resource; some of this information is dated, but the basic ideas presented here are very sound:

http://usscouts.org/cubscouts/goodtroop.asp(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

[evmori]

OK, let me throw this out there as well, not only is our troop not accepting them until they graduate 5th grade, but I just found out that it appears the troop CC has made this decision on his own.

Can he do this without it being a committee vote?

 

The CC can make any decision he wants as long as it is in line with BSA policy. There doesn't need to be a vote. But this decision flies in the face of BSA policy. Has this guy been to training? What does the SM say about this?

[bearshark]

The sm is basically rolling over to whatever the CC says.

[Gunny2862]

Have EITHER of them been to any/all of their Training for their positions?

[bearshark]

sadly, yes. Their training has all been within the last year. In fact, it was suggested that I go to re-train as our ideas tend to differ.(This message has been edited by bearshark)

[Twocubdad]

Youth membership applications require the unit leader's signature, not the committee chairman, so I would think it's the SM's call as to who joins the troop. But if the SM is just rolling over it doesn't really matter.

 

More to the point is that these guys are making a blanket assumption about the Webelos. Can you really say they are ALL too immature? How does he know. Out of any group of 11 year olds your going to have some going on 15 and some going on 5.

 

And, as has been noted above, what difference does he think two months will make? What's going to happen between now and May that these guys will suddenly be mature enough for him?

 

Control freak/power trip, IMHO.

[Lisabob]

Hmm bearshark, your son hasn't yet joined the troop and already you are in a place where the SM and/or CC tells you you should be "retrained" because you disagree with them? Danger, Danger Will Robinson! How are you guys going to manage when you work together all the time and you are faced with the umpteen other ways that these folks are making it up as they go along? (Assuming that's the case - but when people just start making stuff up, they rarely confine themselves to one or two examples!)

 

Like a couple of others have said, I think if it were me, I'd be encouraging my son to look at some other troops, now, before he joins. Yes you can always move later on if necessary, but that isn't without cost and it doesn't sound as if you're very pleased with the approach taken by the adults in this particular troop.

 

Now as for the 2 months bit, for some boys 2 or 3 months is actually a lot. I have known boys who matured a lot in the time between late January/early February and late May/early June of their 5th grade. But that does create other problems (as has been noted in the thread already) and those boys would probably struggle with summer camp. And it certainly is not the case for all boys, or perhaps even most of them. That's why I think an individual decision makes better sense than a blanket decision in either direction.

[Twocubdad]

Your last sentence, LisaBob, is exactly my point. Well put.

 

Sure, maturity comes in fits and spurts and kids may do a lot of growing up in two months. But how does he know it will be the NEXT two months?

[Gunny2862]

They're kids, some 15 year olds are going on 20 and some are still going on 5.

It is and should be an individual, not blanket decision.