Cub Behavior

[JillKB]

We have a parent in our pack who was also in the pack himself as a child (20 or so years ago) and his mother was the cubmaster. I am in contact with his mother still because she is a COR. I was told that he made comments in a den meeting about the behavior of the children in the pack, especially at pack meetings. He said that "when his mother was in charge they never would have acted like that". And he said that after his first pack meeting he almost pulled his son out because of the chaos. This truly surprised me because I've always felt we've had behavior well under control... especially considering a pack of 40 boys (including Lions) plus parents & siblings, gives us a pack meeting of almost 100 people. So to expect the room to remain dead silent during ceremonies, etc. would be nearly impossible. But now he's got me 2nd guessing myself.

 

Som I'm trying to figure out this dad's comment and see if we actually do have a problem or if he is being unrealistic (with idealistic memories of a 10 year old kid). Does anyone have input on the overall behavior at their pack meetings? One problem we do find is that most parents seem to ignore their child's behavior rather than correct it. And den leaders are relucant to correct behavior if the parent is sitting right there. We've talked to the parents about this several times but it doesn't change much. We (cubmaster and committee chair) don't have any issue stopping the meeting and putting the scout sign up but we cannot do that with every noise we hear or we might as well keep the sign up the whole meeting (ouch!).

 

And also, does anyone know where to find info on how things have changed over the years and how things were run versus how they are not? I've been told stories where it seemed like a more military style of behavior was expected. But over the years the overall interest in scouting has declined. Plus parents have changed and most would not so easily tolerate someone correcting their child, removing priviledges, etc. If we ran cubs today expecting complete respect, cooperation and attention of 6 - 11 year old, we wouldn't have much of a scouting program left because they'd all quit. Sad maybe, but true in my opinion. Yes, they need to learn respect and they need to learn the rules... but they are still children and "work in progress"... plus cubs should be fun... Your thoughts would be appreciated.

[Lisabob]

Sounds like he has some rose-tinted memories of his youth experience. Often people criticize what they do not understand. Invite this guy to take on a volunteer position, help him get proper leader training, and see what happens. That may open his eyes to reality a bit. On the other hand, you may quickly discover that he wants no part of helping to lead, and only wants to snipe from the sidelines. In that case, calling the bluff (hey, we could use your assistance as a registered leader...) may quiet him down too.

 

Depending on your relationship with his mom, maybe you can encourage her to have a bit of an eye-opener chat with her son. Often boys do not know what was happening outside their own immediate experience. I bet that things were not nearly as placid as he seems to recall.

[John-in-KC]

Sounds like time for some friendly visits over a cup of coffee:

 

Visit with your COR first. Make sure you are on the page she expects. The Chartered Partner is the licensee of Scouting from the local council.

 

If you're ok with Mom (now Grandma) then visit with the Dad. You can ask that if he's not happy with something the Pack or a Den does, to visit with you directly (I assume you are CM or CC). Be prepared with an adult leader app and a slot where he can help BTW

[JillKB]

I have had thoughts about talking to his mother but I didn't want to cause her to be defensive. I also definitely plan on trying to put him in a leadership position. My Lion leader stays as the constant Lion leader... so when that den moves to Tigers next year we will need a leader. He's first on my list!

[JillKB]

Although the COR (mom/grandma) was very active in her day, she is nearly completely inactive at this point. I used to call her once in awhile for her opinions but rarely followed her advice because it seemed to be coming from a harsh and negative perspective... as though she was burned out on scouts to the point of no return. We have invited her to things and tried to keep her active with us but the most I see of her is to have her sign leader forms once a year. I thought with the grandson joining we might see her at pack meetings, etc. but so far not. I can't predict how a conversation with her would come out and so am somewhat reluctant to have it.

[DeanRx]

1) Leave the momther (old CM) out of it. He's an adult. You're an adult. If you have an issue with something he said, take it up with him. You will gain NO credibility by running to his mother to correct things (especially if she's not active in the pack)... we are adults running the show, correct?

 

2) If you didn't hear the comment 1st hand and he doesn't feel strongly enough to bring the issue forward, then be a duck. Let it roll off your back.

 

3) As a CM, I do not expect 100% silence all the time at pack shows. As a former U.S. Army officer, I do command respect with my voice, my physical stance when addressing the group, and my overall body language. Try rehearsing in the mirror. Do you command respect? If not - no crowd is going to give it to you, especially a room full of 6-10 year old boys.

 

4) I ALWAYS start the meeting with a reminder about decorum and expectations. Dens sit together w/ Den Leaders. Parents & siblings sit in the rear. Den Leaders are in charge of their den's behavoir. Parents are responsible for themselves and any siblings. I have not had to do it yet, but I have no problem asking a parent to take themself, their cub, the sibling, or their spouse and remove them from the meeting if they are distrupting the event. I make this known (in a nice way) - the threat of embarrasement is a good deterent.

 

5) Finally - how FUN are your meetings? IF they are FUN, you will not have to work at holding the cubs' attention. We have silly skits, Den yells, goofy cheers, run-ons etc... I tell the boys I want them to be as LOUD as possible when they cheer or clap or have some other audience participation spot. Thats the point.

 

I also make sure they understand I expect complete cooperation, reverence, and to be quiet on only 3 occasions:

#1 - Anything to do with the U.S. Flag (posting, retreating, pledge)

#2 - Any Rank Advancement Ceremony (keep it short, but make it meaningful)

#3 - Any prayer or invocation we might have

 

Other than that - the meeting is for them, so they should be loud and have fun.

 

You need to set expectations and then follow through. I can tell by your, " If we ran cubs today expecting complete respect, cooperation and attention of 6 - 11 year old, we wouldn't have much of a scouting program left because they'd all quit. Sad maybe, but true in my opinion. Yes, they need to learn respect and they need to learn the rules... but they are still children and "work in progress"... plus cubs should be fun".

 

Sorry, but if you don't at LEAST begin by expecting it - the kids have no way of knowing WHAT they are supposed to live up to.

 

Do you allow your own children to talk back to you? After all, they're just "works in progress". Are they expected to cooperate at home? Then why is this a far fetched expectation of ALL the scouts?

 

Yes, cubs is supposed to be fun - but its fun with a purpose! If you and the other adult leaders are not willing to set expectations and follow through on them, really all you have is a huge playdate in uniforms. Run amok and have fun kids !!

 

Work on setting expectations and enforce them. I use a one warning, then you get to sit out system. I've only had to use it once and the mother of the child apologized profusely after the meeting to ME for her son's behavoir! I don't like sitting kids out and I don't look for a reason to do it. However, the meeting is for the scouts and about the scouts. If anyone is disruptive to the point of taking away from the "good of the group", I have no problem asking them not to participate for that day. Be it scout, parent, sibling, grandparent / etc...

 

One of the first things we can teach the scouts is when you're part of a group or team, the group is more important than YOU. If you don't think so, then you don't get to be part of the group. Its called consequences for your actions.

 

BSA is one of the FEW places that still tries to instill this concept into young people. Please don't water it down b/c you might be afraid that a parent will dislike you correcting their child. If they have that big an issue with it - they're in the wrong place to begin with anayways.

 

Good luck-

 

YiS,

 

Dean

[JillKB]

Dean - I agree with leaving mom/grandma out of it. What you said is exactly how I think I was feeling... you just put it in to words for me. "Be A Duck" will be my new motto because it is something I have a hard time doing.

 

Without a doubt we set our expectations high for the boys. Their behavior and it's affect on the other boys is a priority. As soon as the school year starts we have a list of rules and expectations that both the boys and their parents must agree to and sign. Then we talk about/remind them of those items frequently. We've never had to ask a boy to leave the room. But with the quantity of boys, if they are only disruptive once during the meeting but there are 6 of them that do it then it becomes a lot of disruption. There ARE times we probably should have put the parents in "time out". Some like to talk amongst themselves during the meeting. It isn't an issue that is out of control... but I definitely think this is something we need to address... even if it isn't a pleasant thing to do.

 

I believe I command respect when I speak but the cubmaster does it more as a request... he's a "nice guy". I may need to ask the asst. cubmaster to step in at these moments if need be. I think he would be good at it and he needs more to do anyway.

 

Our pack meetings do have fun things... definitely. We alternate during the meeting between serious things and then fun things, etc. and try to keep things moving and interesting. Our dens sit together and parents often sit with their children. What you did get me thinking about is the fact that the parents often don't want to participate on our "silly" stuff. So they sit there while we expect the children to participate. But instead of letting loose the kids might be more inclined to follow the example of the parent. I'm not going to force the parent to participate... I've been there and I don't want to do that. But having them sit at the back tables may be a solution to that.

 

Your comments are reassuring to me... we're doing well... and I shouldn't let one person's comment make me 2nd guess myself. On the other hand, there is always room for improvement... and sharing ideas among leaders helps to generate ideas. You comments have done that for me and I thank you for that!

 

 

[John-in-KC]

One sidebar from the main conversation: The COR represents the Unit to the Chartered Partner, and the Chartered Partner to the unit. If you look at the BSA program materials, the Chartered Partner has several roles including leader support and facility support. If mom the COR is no longer effective, then it may be time for you and the CC to have a friendly cup of coffee with the IH.

 

Good hunting on her son.