Poaching

[gcnphkr]

Gunney2862 stated:

 

Recruiting can feel like a bear in the best of situations, Scouts will sometimes take an option just to show they can, Other Leaders will poach on Packs you have relationships with, Some folks are just overly competitive about the whole thing

So what constitutes poaching and why is it a bad thing for the scout? If Troop A has a program that appeals to 11 year-olds while Troop B is boring why should the Webelos in Pack B only go to Troop B?I'll recruit from any Pack that will let me. I believe we have a great unit and would love to have them join us. But it also does not bother me when the scouts end up choosing another troop. If my scouts are being Den Chiefs, doing ceremonies and otherwise engaging the cubs then why should you expect the scouts to go to your troop?

[Gunny2862]

When I was newer to Scouting(which isn't all that long ago), I had a much dimmer view of it (poaching)(and a much larger window of what I would have called poaching)(and on at least one occasion got pretty upset about it -mostly on behalf of the feelings of a Den Chief who felt HE'd been wronged by the "poaching" Troop)(I was probably wrong in some of what I said at the time) as anyone who remembers or cares to view my posting history will attest.

 

I now concur that what a Troop other than mine may be offering might be exactly what a Scout who happened to be in a Pack that I have an understanding with or offer lots of support to might need and that he'd be better off with them than he would be with me. And don't feel like it's as big a deal as I used to.

 

I still think the competitive jerk part of it is a little much on the occasions when that is the driving force behind it. But that isn't always what is really going on...

 

To answer the question, in part; I see poaching as primarily an activity where a Troop goes to a Pack and entices Scouts with programs they don't deliver and promises they won't keep in order to keep their Troop from dying even though they know the kid won't stay more than a year or two(which is a real disservice to the Webelo in question) even though they provide no assistance or recognition to the pack during the year. At least those are the organizations I feel like do it the most.

Which is somewhat irritating when you continuously assist the pack with their events and recruit and provide Den Chiefs to them and then have those same Den Chiefs who don't understand what they did wrong that "their" Webelos didn't want to hang out with them in the Troop even though they didn't do anything wrong and should be proud of their service to the pack.

 

uh and jet526... did you read the rest of the posting you pulled this out of?

The section you pulled and the question you framed around it seem a little inflammatory and (to me) not congruent with the spirit of the original post.

 

I will also recruit from anywhere but in the spirit of fair play I don't go anywhere that tells me they are affiliated with some other Troop. Doesn't seem ethical in some way. But if one of my Scouts has a personal relationship with a Scout in one of those type situations I'm not going to turn them away just because they are coming from one of those type situations either.

 

Did that muddy up my position nicely for you? Good, because I think that's still where I'm at.

 

[Eamonn]

Looking back!!

I did when I was a young Scout Leader, back in the UK do more than my fair share of what might be called "Poaching".

I was at that time completely and utterly certain that "My" Troop was just so much better than any other Troop.

At that time I seen the Troop as a reflection of myself and how wonderful I was!

I took more pride than what was good for me, seeing "My" Scouts with arms full of proficiency badges.

I pushed "My Scouts" to win each and every district competition as a way of feeding my overinflated ego.

Along these lines I wanted "My Troop" to be not only the best but also the biggest.

I wasn't beyond telling a young Lad that he had made a big mistake joining the other Troop and pointing out how much better he would be in the "Premier Troop".

At that time rather than reaching out to help a unit that was going through a rough time, I was happy to jump right in and recruit as many of their Scouts as I could.

While of course what I was doing was wrong and not in keeping with any Scout Law, Oath or Promise. We did have a wonderful program, we were offering the Scouts more than other Troops were offering and the Scouts were in many ways benefiting from my wrong doing.

I know now that I was a cocky little fellow who was very full of himself and can see why so many of the other Scouter's in the area took a dislike to me.

It took me about five years to see that what I was doing was wrong and put my ego in check.

A big part in correcting this came when I started to find out what a youth ran program was really about.

Once this happened I was OK with everything not going as well as I would have liked and seen that Scouts do learn from things that don't always go as the adults (Me!!) Might like or want.

Ea.

[rjscout]

As my 2nd year as a Pack Leader, and my first year as a CM, I look forward to having relationships with multiple troops. The more variety of Troops helps the Webelos to choose what troop will be best for them. We are not directly connected to any troop, so maybe it is different within a shared CO.

[ScoutNut]

A Troop might have a "relationship" with a Pack, but it is the boy and his family who ultimately choose their Troop. This is why visiting many different Troops, and even the same Troop different times, is a good thing for the Webelos Scout. Webelos den leaders who do not encourage this, regardless of any "relationship" they might have with a particular Troop, are doing their Scouts a disservice.

 

[John-in-KC]

Any Troop which relies on "its own feeder Pack" is borrowing trouble.

 

The best Troops send forth ASMs to Packs... to see what Pack needs for support are.

 

The best Troops deploy Den Chiefs to Packs ... because a quality Den Chief is the single best recruiting aid in Boy Scouting.

 

The best Troops do ask for some support from Packs ... can you put out the Scouting For Food Bags?

 

Good troops with good program may not get all the Cubs moving up; sometimes the Adult Method Troop gets the undivided attention of Mr and Mrs Smith.

 

Even so, good troops with good program get a sustaining share of Cubs moving up.

 

That's what I've seen

[gwd-scouter]

I guess I'm guilty of poaching. At least, I believe others would see it that way. We do not have a Cub Pack affiliated with our CO. I may be wrong, but I think we are the only Troop in our District that doesn't. In any case, we have deployed Den Chiefs to different Packs, so far only to those that do not have an affiliated Troop. I have invited Webelos Dens, even those with affiliated Troops, to join us for meetings and outings. This year we've had the most visits - fourth and fifth grade Webelos Dens from four different Packs.

 

Some of the boys and leaders joined us at our District's camporee in October. This weekend, we invited the Webelos from those Dens to join us for a day hike on a new trail we checked out over Christmas. This Saturday's hike was planned especially for those Webs that still needed an outdoor activity with a Troop for AOL. Yep, we've got some guys going that are in Packs with an affiliated Troop. And, yes, some of these boys have already decided to join our Troop.

 

The large Troop in our District shares the same CO with the very large Cub Pack for which I used to be Webelos Den Leader and Cubmaster. In those days, I thought it was automatic that Webelos crossed over to the Troop at the same place. It wasn't until I got a better look at that large Troop and when my older son almost quit Scouting after a year in that Troop that I realized the importance of Webelos and their parents having the opportunity to check out many Troops before making a decision on which to join.

 

A couple of years ago we hosted the Webelos Den from that very large Cub Pack for a weekend campout. They all came, but in the end none joined our Troop. They didn't go to the large affiliated Troop either. After about six months, one of the boys transferred to ours and is having a great time. In some ways I think it was a wake up call to that large Troop that they needed to engage more with the Cub Pack instead of sitting back and just waiting for the Webelos to cross over.

 

I feel the competitiveness of some Scoutmasters around here. Yes, there is a certain amount of ego in some being able to say they have X number of Scouts or that they just crossed over a dozen or more Webelos. For our small Troop, we are looking forward to welcoming our first Webelos crossover in March and, as it turns out, not just one Den but boys from two - from two different Packs. We worked hard to recruit over the years and it sure is nice to see all that hard work is finally paying off.

 

I wish all the Troops in our District would do more to work with the Packs, not just the Webelos they wish to entice, but all levels of Cub Scouting. I think it would strengthen the Cub program and perhaps help stop the losses we seem to encounter every year with the Webs to Boys transition.

[GKlose]

About a year ago, I was "coaching" my older son's W2 den leader through the transition process. I felt very strongly about, and was going to do this with my son anyway, visiting every troop in town. This is something I did as a Webelos, and when I hit the right troop (for me) I knew it.

 

I got resistance, anywhere from "Why?" to "But I thought we were supposed to join Troop XX". Along the way, we learned not every troop is perfect, and there is a fairly wide variation, at least among troops in our town. My son had a tough decision to make, and in hindsight, he did pretty well with it.

 

Out of the four troops we visited, I think two had it right...on our way out the door, at these two troops, a unit leader thanked us for visiting and said to us "even if you don't join our troop, please join a troop." It's not always about the health of a unit, it's about the health of a program and finding what is best for a particular scout.

 

Last year, one particular troop in town did a full court press on recruiting and they were rewarded nicely (one reason for doing this is that they had been shut out the year before). I'm pretty sure they recruited all W2's in town except for my son, some 20 total new scouts. That's not such a bad thing, but I've already heard reports that some have dropped out. I can't speculate why, but I would hope they are putting as much effort into retention as they are into recruitment.

[Gunny2862]

I had a great response to Eamonn's post last night but was trying to tap it into my phones browser and the kludgy thing dropped the message in the transfer - I totally did not want to try recreating it on the phone. The below will certainly differ from that response.

 

I fully agree that the thing I want most for the Webelos of any pack is for them to make the best decision for them. A Scout who is totally focused on checking boxes is probably not going to enjoy our Troop as much as one who wants the experience of being outdoors and learning skills they will actually use. He's actually doing us a favor by choosing an Adult led or other program - whether or not he's doing one for himself, well, most of us will have another opinion on that.

 

And exposure to varying programs is the best way for the Webelos to see what the Troops are ACTUALLY offering them.

 

I really think for me it isn't the showing your program portion of recruiting but the headhunting aspect of some folks who are overly competitive and rude (and make remarks like "Yeah I got x# of Troop XX's Crossovers this year" not that they recruited them from the Pack but that they say they took them from the Troop) about the whole thing.(And as for most of us overly competitive is someone who is more competitive than me. )

 

So if you think you are poaching you may be, if you are fairly recruiting and intend to deliver the program you sell then, I doubt you are poaching.

 

AS usual, John-in-KC has nailed it again.

[Buffalo Skipper]

Great topic!

 

I feel strongly about Webelos Recruiting. I agree to the idea of "poaching" being recriting with what you cannot deliver. Our troop has had an interesting experience last year (2007-8). We had one small but active Webelos 2 den, and they were excited about coming to our troop. They had come camping with the troop in October. As the Cubmaster (and troop committee member), I was trying to subtly steer the boys into the troop, and I believe it was working.

 

Come December, I caught wind of the fact that a neighboring troop had mailed to all area Webelos parents a flyer inviting them to their Troops end of year court of honor. This other troop's COR had earned his Eagle in our troop back in 1990, but he is a Power Point guru, and I knew he would woo and swoon all over our Webelos. By chance, our Court of Honor was scheduled for the same night, and I worked hard to get our troop's advancement coordinator to invite these Webelos to our CoH. Unfortunatley, she regarded my sense of urgency as frivolous and paranoid, refusing to invite them as she felt we were unprepared. As predicted, this entire den went to the other troop.

 

This other troop is large and well funded. Every summer they alternate between Philmont and Northern Tier. Between Christmas and new year, they sent one contingent to Northern Tier for winter camp and another to Sea Base. They have a tremendous high adventure program, and I never really saw this a "poaching," since they deliver on what they promissed. The troop committee, however, can be very heavy handed with the PLC.

 

In order to combat this, I organized a complete presentation at roundtable on Webelos recruiting which covered separate presentations to the Cub Scout, Boy Scout and SPL groups, giving more troops the tools to recruit on a more vigerous level. It was also the basis for the Webelos Fun Day which the troop conducted (3 of the 7 dens who participated in our WFD were from this other troop's feeder pack, but their leaders are personal friends of mine).

[Lisabob]

This business about delivery is often the sticking point. I have found that with larger troops, sometimes it is even a division WITHIN the troop. For example, I know one troop that has had a rather successful recruiting effort in recent years because they have a couple of people who are very committed to getting the word out. These folks believe in the program and want to see it done right. They also make phone calls and send emails (and flyers) to local Webelos DLs, invite the webelos dens to troop activities, and follow up with them.

 

Retention, though, is about delivering the promise, and in larger troops that is often not in the hands of those who do the recruiting. In one case at least, I've watched the great recruiting and communication efforts result in a big influx of new scouts, only to also watch the unit lose half or better of those new scouts on a pretty regular basis, because the folks in charge of actual program, don't deliver on the promises others in the troop made while recruiting.

 

I think that's a sad statement on a troop, when it gets to the point where half the leaders don't seem to know (or maybe agree with?) what the other half are saying and doing. And I've seen people who helped with recruitment become angry and bitter with other adults in the troop too, after they busted their butts to get the kids in the door, and then the program folks lost them in the space of a few months. Not a good thing.

 

 

[SMEagle819]

Great tips and stories all around on this topic. Let me add one of mine:

 

We were recruiting heavily with a pack, sending DCs and having them camp with us. Our CC and a ASM had really sold the program to the W2 group that was getting ready to cross over. Come cross over time, of the 12 W2s, we end up getting 2. Come to find out that another local troop was "poaching" (I like this term!). After 4 years of this group of W2s being in scouts, we retained the 2 that crossed to us; the 10 that went to the other troop, I think 4 are still involved.

 

Some of what we experienced was the parents thinking our troop wasn't right for their child. The young man had made his choice, but was swayed by the parents. I have come to realize that even if we do present a good program, one that the boys like (which includes boy led), we will always have a problem convincing the parents that we are a good option.

 

I can honestly say this: whenever anyone visits our troop, be it a Weblo den or someone who has just moved into the area, I welcome them in when they arrive, and say as they leave, "We would really like for you to join our troop. However, if you don't plase join a troop somewhere."

[gcnphkr]

SMEagle.

Boy led troops can be chaotic at times. Parents see that and want structure. I try to coral the parents during times I'm expecting chaos and talk to them then about the troop. While the troop does things to help the packs I tend to focus on recruiting the adults.

[Stosh]

Poaching to one SM is recruiting to another. Just depends on whether one's going to sit around waiting for Webelos boys to walk in the doors or whether they are going to get up off their butt and go after them. Poaching implies those un-earned Webelos somehow "belong" to a troop before the sign on the dotted line.

 

Nope, until they sign, they're fair game for any troop.

 

Stosh