Can I do the AOL ceremony after the cross over???

[scouter1960]

Help, I can't find the answer anywhere. We have our BG planned for the first week in February. Reservations, plans, etc very much in motion. I have just learned that the 5 webelos that are supposed to cross over at the BG ceremony have not yet gone on their outting with boy scout troop which is needed for the AOL. We are scrambling to find a troop to do this with (the group they are crossing over to doesn't have one planned before now and then) but I don't see this happening.

 

Can we do the cross over as planned at the BG and then an AOL ceremony for our next meeting in March? The cross over ceremony is a big part of the BG plan so this is creating a huge problem concerning the program.

 

Thank you

 

 

[jimster]

The Arrow of Light is the highest award a Cub Scout can earn, once they cross over - they are Boy Scouts.

 

I do not see how you can while following the program as designed.

 

 

[shortridge]

I'd tend to agree with jimster. If they cross over, they're Boy Scouts, and can't retroactively earn Cub Scout awards. If it was a matter of simply awarding the AOL, I'd say you have a bit more leeway. But a Boy Scout, even a newly minted one, can't complete Cub Scout requirements.

 

That said, don't lose hope. The requirement reads "With your Webelos den, visit at least one Boy Scout troop meeting, and one Boy Scout-oriented outdoor activity." The latter element doesn't necessarily mean an overnight outing. It could mean a day nature hike, a knots-and-lashings instruction day, a hands-on cold-weather survival demonstration, an outdoor cooking day with all sorts of fun goodies. Ask your local troop for a patrol to volunteer to put on such an event. Reserve a site at a local state park sometime in the next three weeks, do the deed, and Bob's your uncle.

 

EDITED TO ADD: Actually, you're probably out of luck. The requirements further read: "After you have completed all five of the above requirements, and after a talk with your Webelos den leader, arrange to visit, with your parent or guardian, a meeting of a Boy Scout troop you think you might like to join. Have a conference with the Scoutmaster."

 

So they actually still have two requirements left - the outdoor activity and the troop meeting, since the meeting attendance has to take place after the outdoor activity. That might be a bit harder to accomplish in the next few weeks.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

[SequoiaWDL]

The cross-over ceremony is just that: a ceremony. Until they fill out the transfer paperwork form to join the troop, they are still Webelos, and still a member of the pack.

[shortridge]

I see your point, but generally, a ceremony is a public recognition of a private accomplishment. It signifies the Cub becoming a Boy Scout, generally including the outward trappings of epaulets and neckerchief.

 

If they haven't crossed over, then why have a crossover ceremony?

[ScoutNut]

Unless they are all 11 years old, if they have not earned their AOL they can NOT become Boy Scouts, so no Cross Over.

 

Have your CM talk to the SM of the Troop the boys want to transfer into. If he REALLY wants these boys, he, and his PLC, can put something together for one of their next meetings. If that's to much trouble for him, contact other area Troops, I am sure one of them would like 5 new Scouts!

 

Meanwhile, the CM, and the CC, should have a heart-to-heart talk with that Webelos Leader. What a way to drop the ball!

[NeilLup]

With respect, Scouter1960, I believe that you are putting the cart way before the horse. I understand your planning for the Blue and Gold and that not having the crossover would leave a big hole. However, the Blue and Gold and the crossover are supposed to be something done to recognize the Scout's accomplishments. For whatever reason, they haven't finished the accomplishment. It's a little like the high school graduation where they let someone go through and walk across the stage, but they don't get a diploma because they haven't finished. That leaves a bit of a bad taste or more in everybody's mouth.

 

And I have some real problems with rushing through the visit a Troop requirements. That is supposed to be a very special experience to give the Webelos Scouts a solid taste of Scouting, making them comfortable with the Troop and strongly motivating them to continue as Boy Scouts. If you force it and rush it, then what's the message? Our Blue and Gold ceremony is important but you and your continuing as a Boy Scout is not. In my opinion, very bad message and totally contrary to what we are trying to do in Webelos Scouting.

 

Let the boys do the Troop visits at the proper time, become enthused with the Troop and become active participating Boy Scouts. Don't sell the boys and Boy Scouting short. Come up with something else for the Blue and Gold.

[gwd-scouter]

ScoutNut's post is right to the point - since your Webelos have not yet finished 5th grade or have not earned the AOL, then they must be 11 years old to join Boy Scouts. Perhaps they are all 11, in which case you don't have a problem holding a crossover ceremony.

 

I know a lot of Packs hold their crossover and AOL ceremonies at the Blue and Gold. However, nothing says you have to. We have Webelos crossing over to our Troop, but the ceremonies are later in the Spring - one group in March, one in May.

 

When I was a Cubmaster, our pack always did the AOL and crossover in February as part of the B&G. I must say I like the idea of having those ceremonies as separate Pack meetings rather than as part of Scouting's anniversary. Makes them more special to have a night of their own.

[SMT224]

The crossover should really be a separate ceremony. The B&G is a bright fun celebration, but the crossover is a serious ceremony where boys are leaving the Pack - it's a big deal! It's not entertainment!

 

Scouter1960, I really suggest the crossover be pulled out of the B&G and done when the Webelos have their AOL and are ready to become Boy Scouts. No doubt those planning the B&G will have fit over this, but remind them that this is about the boys, not them!

 

 

[Eagle92]

I have to agree you cannot have a crossover until they get the AOL. Without the AOL, they are not eligible for the crossover. So it need to be pulled for the BnG.

 

Also since I can remember, The only time I have not seen an AOL and Crossover combined is when the scouts were not moving on into scouting. And that has happened only 1 time in my 26 years in scouting. usually you have a combined ceremony, with those boys getting the AOL being joined by boys you didn't but are moving on anyway. Usually these are scouts who joined late in the program.

[Eagle92]

Forgot to add that the only time I've seen a "Boy Scout" receive their AOL is when the Scout completed all the requirements for AOL and met the 11 year of age and wanted to go camping with the troop before the AOL/Crossover ceremony. Since I wanted to go camping, I turned in that application I filled and went camping on my 11th birthday. But that was when you had to either 11 or completed 5th grade and have the AOL. WAY BACK IN THE DAY!

[IM_Kathy]

the only time I've seen this was due to "postponed due to weather" incident... the webelos were suppose to go camping with the boy scouts and couple weeks later have their crossover and AOL ceremony, but we had a terrible ice storm and the campground was closed down so the BSA troop had to postpone their campout. The crossover/AOL ceremony was already scheduled and booked. The boys did their ceremony, but did not recieve their badge until after completing the campout.

 

some of these boys may already be 11... from when my son was a webelos II all but 1 boy had turned 11 by the the winter.

[scouter1960]

Thank you all so much for the help. I am waiting for a reply from the Web II leader. They had a death in the family so I haven't been able to communicate with her much this week. CM and CC (me) both are concerned that due to this lack of planning this very important event (if it even happens) is going to be rushed just "to check off a box" and the real meaning of what is going on is getting completely lost. NOT how we want this to go! This Web II leader is determined that they will cross over at BG. I have concerns that in the end they will just say they did it all, whether they did or not. Part of the problem is that the scout master of the troop that the boys are going to has not responded to the Web leader or CM/CC. I have called his house and his wife just says he's busy and the best way to reach him is via email. My emails have been unanswered.

 

I personally have no desire to encourage feeding the troop where the leadership is well known in the district to not communicate (I have talked to the asst district commissioner about the lack of communication already and they are aware that this is a problem). The problem with this particular group is many are still crossing over to this troop because they have older brothers in it. It was the ADC that suggested I get with other troop leaders and ask if we can tag along on one of their outtings just to meet the requirement. And I have to say most have been very willing to try and help...it's just that we have so little time.

 

Another problem is the Web II leaders son thinks he is getting his super achiever award at BG. The way I read it is they have to have completed the 20 before they make AOL. If they don't make the AOL requirements before BG he shouldn't get his super achiever at the BG awards ceremony, right?

 

BG is in 3 weeks. I currently have no idea what the program is going to be. Therefore I don't know how to make the invitations, plan for food etc. If we change the BG to a traditional birthday party for scouts (which is how it is intended) and we remove the big award section of the program I know that the grandparents, etc are not going to attend. They will wait until the AOL/crossover ceremony.

 

 

The parents of the Web II think we are being a bit hard nosed about all of this. The prior leadership just moved the kids a long so there is growing frustration over this conflict and the BG committee is

really upset as well.

 

If I had my way I would change BG to a birthday party and do the AOL and crossover in March. In my view this is the only way to do it. I am just meeting considerable resistance. And as someone else stated, this is leaving a HUGE hole in the BG plans!

 

 

[ScoutNut]

"Super Achiever" is a local award, not a BSA award, with National requirements.

 

The only criteria I have ever seen for this patch is to simply earn every Webelos Activity Pin. What difference does it make if some were earned before he finished AOL, or after?

 

As long as the boy HAS completed all 20, and he was a registered Webelos Cub Scout when he completed them, I don't see the problem. Give him his recognition.

 

As for the SM not communicating with anyone - Does the Troop have Troop meetings? Get your CM, and your assistant Webelos leader (if the den leader is still unavailable), and show up at their Troop meeting this coming week. Corner the SM talk to him. A bonus is that you can speak to the SPL, PL, and the Scout who is to be their Guide at the same time.

 

As has been noted, IF the missing requirement is - "With your Webelos den, visit at least one Boy Scout - oriented outdoor activity" - The activity does not have to be a camp out. It can be a day hike, sledding, orienteering, pioneering, etc. As long as it is done outside with the Boy Scouts it qualifies.