Questions of faith

[Sarge]

I do not take BW's comments as a personal attack or find them to be malicious. His points are valid and are something to consider.

I do have my own views on things, and have not denounced a 'SOURCE' concept completely.

Perhaps I will just pick up the Bible again and start reading at Chapter 1.

And follow some advice I was given "Off Forum" by another member.

It's all sound and based in several more years experience than I have.

Thank you.

[Bob White]

Thank you for taking the time to understand Sarge.

BW

[BadenP]

I agree with Kahuna and others who state you do not have to follow a Judeo-Christian ethic to meet this requirement and no one here, including BW, has the right to pass judgement on another concerning whether or not they meet the DRP or not. This question of faith belongs solely in the purview of that scouts family. The DRP is worded nebulously enough to include a wide variety of beliefs, as it should be. So Sarge you keep being the great cub leader you are and let the rest evolve in its own natural order.

[SSScout]

Sarge: I believe that you are on the right track. And I like your mention of the "source". I also like going back to the "source". For Scouts and their leaders, I find no better place to start than with

B-P:

"Reverence to God and reverence for one's neighbour and reverence for oneself as a servant of God, is the basis of every form of religion. The method of expression of reverence to God varies with every sect and denomination. What sect or denomination a boy belongs to depends, as a rule, on his parents' wishes. It is they who decide. It is our business to respect their wishes and to second their efforts to inculcate reverence, whatever form of religion the boy professes."

== from "Aids to Scoutmastership"==

 

As to encouraging the boys in their spiritual life, and you are uncomfortable in that role, if you ask around you can probably find someone in your District or Council ("Relationship Committee") who can speak to the Cubs AND THEIR PARENTS (!)about that part of the Scout life. There is a multitude of religious awards available for Cubs to earn about their faith. There used to be a poster (#5-206A 1995) that displays the 75 or so awards of the various faiths, but I've been told that it is out of print.

Unless your Cub Unit is mono faith, it is not appropriate to be too "preachy" as to any particular faith. Each family will, no doubt, be concerned with teaching their children the truth as they know it.

I leave it to you to see where that conversation might lead.

And, as has been noted before, it is the parent that passes the Cub on that requirement, not you, the Cub Leader.

 

[hot_foot_eagle]

In my experience, cubs aren't going to get into heavy theological discussions. Keep the focus on things they can relate to.

 

We usually discuss how people from different cultures / churches / families might show reverence. Sometimes boys share some custom or tradition of their own, other times it's just generalities. We've had a good time comparing bedtime and mealtime rituals, for example, both family and religious.

 

I always found it most comfortable to broach the topic of religion by way of discussing our freedoms as Americans. Most of my boys attend church regularly and represent many denominations. When they consider that in some parts of the world you can't go to church, or that you might be harmed if you go to the "wrong" church, I think they begin to understand how important it is to allow and respect religious differences.

 

[Bob White]

It woud be a real misunderstanding of the scouting program to think that if the scouts don't bring up Duty to God and Reverence to God then we as leaders do not need to address it.

 

Duty to God and Reverence is an intergal part of the Scouting program, The BSA makes this abundantly clear when it says that its members cannot grow into the best kind of citizen without a religious element.

 

Whether the scout brings it up or not, we have agreed as Scouting program leaders to help every scout along their individual path by including Duty to God and Reverence to God in the unit program. It is not something to shy away from or excuse yourself from because a scout does not bring it up.

[BadenP]

It is a subject that should be discussed in the home by the parents, especially with cubs. Other than general references to creation or a creative force any deeper discussions would be inappropriate especially if it references a specific religion or denomination, that is not shirking the scout leaders responsibility as BW suggests.

[Stosh]

If it's just an issue that is between the parents and the scouts, why does the BSA program get involved by having a law concerning their duty to God? It surely seems to be more of an issue than "don't ask, don't tell" which seems to be implied here.

 

If one doesn't believe in a God, then there can be no duty to them and the whole basis of the scout's oath is pretty much just lip-service.

 

Duty to God, country and others is the basis for the scouting program. If that doesn't float in your world, not a problem, pick another youth program that promotes a different program.

 

Stosh

 

 

[BadenP]

That's not what I said Stosh. What I said is that pushing a particular faith tradition on cubs by the den leader is wrong, especially when the parents sign off the requirement anyhow.

 

Nothing is wrong about talking about a creator or the divine but for an organization whose members come from multiple faiths a scout leader is not supposed to promote his own agenda of what he thinks the correct tradition or definition of GOD is the true one, that lies with the parents of the cub. To do otherwise would indeed be in violation of the DRP.

[Stosh]

BP: Yes, you are correct, I was only stating that for many in the Scouting program, especially as they progress into Boy Scouts, a "don't ask, don't tell" attitude is producing Eagle Scouts, who should be an example of religious, moral character that don't actively participate in any religion, have stated it as such, and basically defy the Eagle Boards to challenge them. If the issue of religion isn't addressed in Cubs, it surely will remain an issue throughout the scout's journey.

 

The DL's can encourage the boys to pursue their religious knots, yes, but when the boy says he doesn't go to church, parents don't go to church, etc. the DL has a responsibility under BSA to address the issue with both the boy and the parents. Instead more often than not the DL ignores the issue and figures someone else will deal with it later on.

 

BSA by virtue of it's program has a mandate to produce boys that adhere to the principles it has designated towards that program. To shirk responsibilities towards those goals by any of the adult leadership in any of its programs is to demonstrate that the laws and oaths of the program are a "pick and choose" option. Well, sorry, I just can't and don't buy into that process. If a boy wants to be Islam and the DL is Christian, the DL has a responsibility to do everything within his responsibilities as part of the BSA program to assist that boy in being a Muslim. Outside of the program the DL can do whatever he wishes.

 

Stosh

[ScoutNut]

I could find these statements by the BSA -

 

"the home and organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life"

 

and -

 

"it leaves sectarian religious instruction to the members religious leaders and family"

 

 

Where does BSA state that a Scout MUST "actively participate" in a religion?

 

Where does BSA state that a Scout and his family MUST go to a church?

 

Where does BSA state that it is the job of a DL to "address the issue" with any family they believe does not "go to church"?

 

(This message has been edited by scoutnut)

[Bob White]

To whom are you addressing these questions Scoutnut?

[ghermanno]

Stosh,

 

Referring to the "doesn't attend church" scenario and your "If a boy wants to be Islam and the DL is Christian, the DL has a responsibility to do everything within his responsibilities as part of the BSA program to assist that boy in being a Muslim." you are fine with the DL violating his/her belief system?

 

Are you saying that if a youth came to you and said they wanted to be Wiccan or Pagan that you would assist them in finding a coven or a Pagan group? They are recognized religions as well.

 

I would never ask a Christian, Muslim, or Jewish follower to assist a person in finding a Pagan religion. That is the pervue of the FAMILY. If the DL gets involved and it is found that he/she was assisting a boy in a religion that the parents thought was detrimental to the family and/or the boy, then the DL could possibly be sued and would definately lose his/her ability to work with kids.

 

It must be the parents decision. If they agree, you can take the kid to any church/denomination/coven... that you & they agree to for introductory purposes. But, not without thier approval and hopefully participation.

 

Rick

[Bob White]

The BSA does not say to help them be a good anything other than a good Scout. The BSA asks that all leaders include religious elements that help each scout to understand their Duty to God and to show Reverenece to God, while being respectful of each scouts individual beliefs.

 

 

[Trevorum]

... "respectful of each scouts individual beliefs. "

 

Except, of course, some people evidently think it's OK to tell Scouts who don't happen to believe in the Judeo-Christian deity that they're not "the best type of citizens" ...