Den Sizes?

[struax]

Well, the middle of the year and the Program is running smoothly, now we have a new Wolf.....

 

Currently, we have two Dens of 11 and 8 respectively, and now a new boy is to come in.

 

Besides all the Den dynamic stuff that we could talk about I was wondering what size you all would think to be "overfull" and on top of that how to get a boy through rank by the end of Program year, June.

 

I think that is enough to chew on for now.

 

YIS

Scott

[Bob White]

If I were the Cubmaster of that Pack I would be looking to reorganize the 11 member den into two dens, one that incorporates the new scout. Giving the pack three Wolf dens of 8,6, and 6. This would allow any new cubs of this age group to be welcomed into the dens of 6 until they came up to a maximum of 8 scouts.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Buffalo Skipper]

I agree with BW 100%! When the math works, dens should have 6-8 boys. This is truly the optimal size. I have repeatedly seen larger dens collapse upon themselves (leaving 2 or 3) even with a qualified, talented and excited leader. More than 10 is just too many. Divide that den!

 

Just my opinion.

[Sarge]

I also agree with BW.

My son's Wolf den currently holds 14 boys.

Started with 9, then exploded to 14 before either Assistant had training.

For us it works, and the Cub Master has chosen to leave it as is.

But I know that for next year, we will have at least 2 Bear Dens.

Guess I'll be trading the Asst. Den Leader patch in for a full fledged Den Leader one...

 

Ooooh. My 50th post! A milestone.....(This message has been edited by Sarge)

[SctDad]

I think that you should try to make the dens at 10 or less. If you can find another den leader then try making it as the others have said. But before you break it down into three dens, get a leader and get them trained and motivated.

[ScoutNut]

"how to get a boy through rank by the end of Program year, June."

 

 

While earning his Wolf Rank Award is certainly a worthwhile goal - it is NOT a purpose of Cub Scouts. Advancement is only 1 of 7 methods used to achieve the purposes of Cub Scouting, and Personal Achievement and Family Understanding can be achieved in other ways.

 

If the boy WANTS to earn his Wolf rank, then he will need to work with his family at home. Since the rank achievements are supposed to be earned that way, there should not be any big hardship for the boy.

 

If the den leader has planned on working on any Wolf rank requirements in the upcoming months, the leader should communicate these to the new Wolf and his parents. Some that have already been covered in the den might be able to be repeated in different ways so they are fun for the boys who have already done them. The den leader should share any resources he has used with the parents (Home Depot/Lowes kids days, nature centers, zoos, etc).

 

 

[Pack212Scouter]

For Tiger-Bear, I generally like to see the Den size between 6-10 with 8 being the target. This depends alot on Den dynamics. If the den is full of well behaved, interested kids, 8-10 is good. If it is full of hyperactie kids, then you may want it smaller, around the 6 boy size. The problem with dens that are 6 or less is that if a couple of kids get sick or miss a meeting, you almost don't have a Den.

 

Now for Webelos, boys in the same year usually seem to work well with Den sizes of 6-12. The older the boys, generally the larger the Den that works well.

[struax]

Thanks to all. THis is the type of conversation i needed. I am going to accept having my den grow to 10 boys, primarily as Pack212 says

 

"If the den is full of well behaved, interested kids, 8-10 is good."

 

My current boys I would have to say (not bragging or anything here...lol) ar every well behaved, yes they have moments we all do. So adding the next 2 yes will change the dynamic, but i think that can be put under control by haw the boys currently act and by putting into place a few new items.

Yes, i am finally going to create Den rules. The evil eye just will not work anymore with this amount of boys. The other part of that is grater parental involvment during Den meetings.

 

I see the point about even if one or two boys dont make events or whatever that we will still have a good population of boys to do them, but you can also have the other effect, having all 10 boys show up and corralling them than is going to be a "feature".

 

Thanks for the advise on the Rank achievement, witht he remaining 6 months it is possible that this boy can achieve this rank if the parents and he work hard. The only real bummer about it is we usually present rank at the B & G in Feb.I just have to get over the fact that he will get it than but he will have the opportunity to get the rank presented to him at the spring campout.

 

Again, thanks forthe input and conversation.

 

YIS

Scott

[SctDad]

Like you already noted, rank can be done in the time that you have. I have two boys that are about finished with their wolf requirements and we started working on them in September. Now I also have some boys who are no where near earning their Wolf. Becuase their parents do not do anything and have turned in nothing by way of advancement. I feel sorry for them when the others are earning thier Wolf and they do not. There is too much to do to try and cover everything that is required in Meetings. Not to mention, I am trying to keep it from seeming like school, so things like requirement 12 in the wolf, they can do at home. I tell parents that they need to be working on thigs at home, but it seems like no one is listening.

 

I guess that some won't amke rank in time.

[Pack212Scouter]

As you said, parental involvment will be needed. As we tell all of our parents, we are not a baby sitting service. The Den Leader's job is to instruct the boys and implement the program, not continually be a disiplinarian.

[mom3kids]

6-8 boys is the officially recommended den size for our council. We don't always meet that goal, though. Last year, I had 10 tigers and it was a handful, especially when all the boys need to particptae in a discussion. Over the summer we picked up 2 more and I had to fight the assistant den leader and one commitee person (cubmaster and many parents were on my side) to break into 2 dens of 6. Luckily we did so, as we kept picking up new scouts through Nov and are now at 20 (2 dens of 10). I really didn't want 10 kids, but we can't break into 3 dens at this point (too late in the year and lack of parent leaders). We have found, though, that on certain topics (actually folding the flag, discussing state flag, etc) it is best to break our ten boys into 2 or 3 groups. I and my co-leader each take one group and the weekly parent helper takes the 3rd group if we divide into 3.

[John-in-KC]

A truism of leadership is 1 leaders span of control is 5-7 folk. BTW, that implies matured adults.

 

For a 10 boy den, I strongly recommend both an Assistant Den Leader and a Den Chief, to help with span of control, and to allow focus on various activities.

 

2 helpers brings the ratio down to 3:1. BW is right, BTW, max size is supposed to be 8.