Age Appropriate Fire Building?

[bfloyd]

Help me out here. I'm a long time reader of the forums, but rarely post. I am currently serving as the Tiger Den leader for our pack, and I have two sons in the pack - one Tiger and one Bear. I've gone through all of my on-line training and council-led "Leader Specific Training" for both Wolf Den Leader (last year) and Tiger Den Leader (this year).

 

I am an avid follower of the "Program Helps" as far as the structure and program for my den meetings with my Tigers. My oldest son who is the Bear (8 years old) has a den leader who has not been thru any type of training, doesn't use any type of program structure, and generally thinks the program helps with all it's "sissy crafts" bores the boys and they need to learn "real" outdoor stuff. I've been to a couple of their den meetings, and it's usually organized chaos with nothing learned, their scout books never opened, the boys sent out to play, and the parents sitting around a dining room table talking.

 

At our Pack meeting last weekend, the Bear leader announced to the pack that the Bears, and Wolves (he runs both dens) will be learning how to build and start fires at their next den meeting. Isn't their some type of "Age Appropriate" guidelines that the BSA follows? I've looked thru the "Guide for Safe Scouting" and didn't find anything specific. I found several charts on the national BSA website, but I'm not quite sure how to interpret them.

 

I'm not sure I really like the idea of my 8 year old son learning how to start fires just yet. On a camping trip it might be OK under adult supervision, but at 8 years old, they're mischievious enough to try it at home in their bedroom closet.

 

http://www.scouting.org/BoyScouts/Age-AppropriateGuidelines/chart.aspx

 

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/ageguides.pdf

 

Any suggestions?

[kbandit]

Your second link on age appropiate activities, it must have a black line through it to be OK to do. Fire building is listed and not appropiate for that age group as such not covered by BSA insurance if something goes wrong.

[Bob White]

"Your second link on age appropiate activities, it must have a black line through it to be OK to do. Fire building is listed and not appropiate for that age group as such not covered by BSA insurance if something goes wrong.

 

That is incorrect.

 

The age appropriate guidelines have no bearing on either accident insurance or liability protection. They are merely guidleines in helping units to determine what activities on average are recommended based on average stages of development for youth at the listed ages. They are not polices, they are not tied to aetiner insurance or liability. It is a program aid and nothing more.

 

bfloyd

Consider this. If you do not teach an eight year old the proper way and proper places to build a fire you may just find that they will experiment in their own, perhaps in the closet at home.

 

Better you should teach them the right way and include a talk from a local firefighter on the dangers of misusing fire or being careless with matches and lighters. An 8 year old is old enough to understand.

 

 

 

 

 

[SctDad]

Firebuilding for Bear Scouts is not in their program of achievements/electives. So IMO They do not need to be doing it yet.

 

It is however in the Outdoorsman Activity Badge (Requirement 7) it is required to discuss the rules of fire safety and build a fire according to these rules.

 

As for the untrained leader, if you have that much concern about his lack of training, talk to the Cubmaster and pass on your concerns. This may be what is needed.

 

Hope that you figure this out soon.

[kenk]

Having experienced it myself having gone from Tiger Cub Den Leader to 3rd year Asst. SM, it is far too easy for excited adult leaders to want to teach young Scouts skills that the Scouting program really plans to teach them latter - when it is more "age appropriate".

 

Teaching pre-Webelos fire safety - both indoors & outdoors - is a great thing. My view is that we should follow the Age Appropriate Guidelines and that teaching them fire-building should be left for Webelos and Boy Scouts.

[AnniePoo]

I always reviewed fire safety (including not playing with matches kind of stuff) to my pre-Webelos dens right around Fire Prevention Week. When the kids became Webelos, they were allowed to start participating in campfire building during our Webelos campouts, in accordance with safety measures learned in BALOO and Outdoor Webelos Leader training. As soon as the snow melts this spring, we'll work more on starting campfires without a match.

[AnniePoo]

I always reviewed fire safety (including not playing with matches kind of stuff) to my pre-Webelos dens right around Fire Prevention Week. When the kids became Webelos, they were allowed to start participating in campfire building during our Webelos campouts, in accordance with safety measures learned in BALOO and Outdoor Webelos Leader training. As soon as the snow melts this spring, we'll work more on starting campfires without a match.

[Karen_216]

At council resident camp this last summer the scouts were shown not only how to cook over fires but the different types of structures used to build a fire and what purpose each served - cooking fire vs a camp fire for singing, etc. Also all the safety rules of having to have a bucket to put it out and a strict talk on saftey and what to look for when building a fire- no overhanging trees- clear area- rocks around, etc. They didn't light them though.

I see teaching about fire as no more dangerous than learning whittling- all these things deserve respect. My son is a Bear but this discussion was for wolves too.

however- I'd be concerned that no achievements at all are being done and if they are just by accident.

Nothing wrong in not doing crafts but some the kids love and aren't "sissy"- afraid of your manhood anyone?? - making slides- for example also we made cooking ornaments to give at a nursing home. Even boy scouts have a badge for basket weaving.

Maybe this guy shoudl be sent to BALOO if he's the outdoorsy type. They even taught us games there. Still have to let kids be kids.

[DeanRx]

I think its the CONTEXT of the training...

 

1) Are the kids in the given Dens mature enough to understand the topic and respect the responsibility that their new knowledge (fire building) places upon them?

 

2) Is the DL capable of providing an appropriate learning situation? Will he talk up safety / responsibility as much (if not more so) than how cool it is to be able to start a fire? Given your post on how this person runs their Den meetings, I might have my doubts.

 

3) Do you feel comfortable with YOUR child learning this skill at this point in time? If not - they can opt out. Just as any parent that doesn't feel comfortable with their scout going to the range at camp can opt out.

 

I would say - this is a Den meeting I as a parent would attend. I would watch HOW the lesson is taught, the re-inforce / re-state anything I felt needed attention AFTER we got home.

 

BW is right - at age 8, they can figure out how to get matches and play with fire if they really want to. Best they learn how to respect fire and how to be responsible with it.

 

As for the idea that if its not in their handbook, then its not age appropriate ?!?!? Then I guess Tigers and Wolves need no mention of water safety, PFD use in boats, swimming w/ buddies / etc... After all, there's no swimming requirements in the Tiger or Wolf rank handbooks. Just take 'em to the pool and toss them right in... Range safety is not covered in ANY of the cub level handbooks - so I guess no ranges at camp. Or if they do have ranges, no need for a safety briefing, just give 'em the air rifles and bows and let them go at it ! Doesn't make much sense that just because its not in their rank achievements, they can't be doing the activity.

 

I'd say your issue lies with the DL and his ability / inability to SAFELY teach this subject matter.

 

If you have concerns, then you are well within your right to attend the Den meeting as an observer. However, I'd caution to refrain from interrupting / taking over, unless the DL is completely out of line and teaching items / attitudes towards fires that will but scouts in danger. Otherwise, let your kid learn and reinforce your ideals or add to the lesson afterwards in private.

 

Best of luck,

 

Dean

[shortridge]

Regardless of safety issues (I believe teaching fire safety, basic first aid and calling 911 is important at all ages), there's the basic issue of progression at work here.

 

If the Bears know all there is to know about firebuilding (or think they do), that's one less thing for them to look forward to in Webelos and Boy Scouts.

 

The achievements are a basic guideline for age progression. They make sense, too, generally speaking.